Goddess Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 13 minutes ago, dialamah said: Maybe not. This woman was deported, despite having a 4-month old. She was deported because of this: Quote She came to Canada in 2012 on a six-month visa, but overstayed her visa. She "overstayed" by more than 5 years - plenty of time to do things the legal way. While unfortunate that she is deported, she CHOSE to do things illegally. I have a friend who met and married a Canadian woman. He CHOSE to do things the legal way. While it did take several years and they had to live in 2 different countries for a time, he is now a permanant resident of Canada and working on his citizenship. Why should she be rewarded for breaking our laws and illegally entering the country? What is the point of having any laws for immigration, if your view is to just let everyone do whatever they want, without regard to canadian law? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turningrite Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) 25 minutes ago, dialamah said: On the other hand, I suppose a fact or two does tend throw a spanner into the unending bitchfest about migrants, refugees and how stupid/easy Canada is. Unending bitchfest? I think Canadians are remarkably stoic about (and, perhaps even more importantly, largely unaware of) the problems associated with our immigration and refugee programs. Once more-or-less a progressive myself, the biggest wakeup call I got on these issues was from a friend who used to work in the federal immigration and refugee system. His assessment of the system's weaknesses and problems was chilling. He got out of that bureaucracy. I wonder what he'd have to say about today's problems? My guess is that he'd raise an eyebrow and describe the situation as entirely predictable. Canadians, he'd no doubt conclude, have been sleepwalking for decades. Edited July 23, 2018 by turningrite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 7 minutes ago, Goddess said: She was deported because of this: True, but the point was that she was deported even though she had a 4-month-old baby. The.point was that babies do not give one a free pass into Canadian citizenship. Nothing to do with "why" she was.deported. 9 minutes ago, Goddess said: While unfortunate that she is deported, she CHOSE to do things illegally. I have no problem with her depotation; I agree people should follow the law and overstaying one's visa should get one deported. I just happen to be fond of accuracy and Capricorn's claim that baby-making was almost a sure path to staying isn't accurate. 12 minutes ago, Goddess said: Why should she be rewarded for breaking our laws and illegally entering the country? How is remaining in a country long enough to get comfortable, make connections, create a family and then being forced to leave a "reward" exactly? I would call that a much worse outcome than being deported much sooner. Not to mention the five years of living under such uncertainty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 15 minutes ago, dialamah said: How is remaining in a country long enough to get comfortable, make connections, create a family and then being forced to leave a "reward" exactly? The reward would have been - her being allowed to stay, despite intentionally breaking our laws. Quote I would call that a much worse outcome than being deported much sooner. Not to mention the five years of living under such uncertainty. The rest of it, I don't have a lot of sympathy with - Boo Hoo. Don't care about her deportation or the 5 years of living in uncertainty. She wasn't coming from a war-torn country. She CHOSE to roll the dice and hope having a kid here would allow her to completely by-pass our laws. It didn't work out for her. Bye-bye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 25 minutes ago, turningrite said: Unending bitchfest? I think Canadians are remarkably stoic about (and, perhaps even more importantly, largely unaware of) the problems associated with our immigration and refugee programs. Once more-or-less a progressive myself, the biggest wakeup call I got on these issues was from a friend who used to work in the federal immigration and refugee system. His assessment of the system's weaknesses and problems was chilling. He got out of that bureaucracy. I wonder what he'd have to say about today's problems? My guess is that he'd raise an eyebrow and describe the situation as entirely predictable. Canadians, he'd no doubt conclude, have been sleepwalking for decades. Damn. I was nearly done posting a longer reply and it all went boom. But briefly: your friend was no doubt accurate in assessing the weakness of the system, but if he's anything like most humans, he's overly-focused on the negative and so I suspect his assessment is only part of the story. Personally I agree that Canada should figure out how to be more efficient at deporting those who need deporting; I just don't think hyperbole and falsehoods need to be part of the discussion. Perhaps this current crisis will lead to more efficient processing. Btw why do you need to identify yourself as "right" or "left"? Must we all claim a "team"? Wouldn't it be easier to avoid stupid partisanship if we avoided joining one team or another, but instead kept our options, and maybe our minds, open? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 13 minutes ago, Goddess said: The reward would have been - her being allowed to stay, despite intentionally breaking our laws. The rest of it, I don't have a lot of sympathy with - Boo Hoo. Don't care about her deportation or the 5 years of living in uncertainty. She wasn't coming from a war-torn country. She CHOSE to roll the dice and hope having a kid here would allow her to completely by-pass our laws. It didn't work out for her. Bye-bye. There was no indication in the news story I posted that she deliberately produced a baby to use to stay in Canada, though I am not saying she didn't. The whole point of my first post was merely that having a baby didn't mean people got to stay in Canada, and further on that I think deportation is what should happen. You seem to be responding as if we disagree here, when we don't really. I guess the biggest difference between us is that I can support her deportation because she did break the law, while still having some empathy for where she now finds herself. You seem pretty gleeful that she's losing her family and baby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 8 minutes ago, dialamah said: You seem pretty gleeful that she's losing her family and baby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capricorn Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 1 hour ago, dialamah said: Here is some info on women who are deported despite having a Canadian kid. That link has squat to do with pregnant refugees. As for the rest, I defer to other posters who have well laid out how I see this situation regarding pregnant so called refugees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centerpiece Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 38 minutes ago, dialamah said: The whole point of my first post was merely that having a baby didn't mean people got to stay in Canada, and further on that I think deportation is what should happen. You're right - but it's pretty obvious that having a baby increases your chances to stay on "humanitarian" grounds - if only because governments do not want to be accused of being heartless in separating mother and child. Can you just imagine how The Star and CBC would jump on these types of cases if Stephen Harper was still PM? So if you're here illegally, why not roll the dice if you're OK having a child? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted July 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 47 minutes ago, Goddess said: Hey, she's completely unbiased, you know! She's not on a team or partisan or anything! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centerpiece Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 I don't understand the logic behind granting automatic Canadian citizenship to a newborn whose mother is illegally in Canada. I could understand the child ultimately having a fast path to citizenship under the right criteria - but there are many situations where both mother/father/both should just get returned to their own country ASAP. It shouldn't be about bureaucratic convenience - it should be about what's right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted July 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Centerpiece said: I don't understand the logic behind granting automatic Canadian citizenship to a newborn whose mother is illegally in Canada. I could understand the child ultimately having a fast path to citizenship under the right criteria - but there are many situations where both mother/father/both should just get returned to their own country ASAP. It shouldn't be about bureaucratic convenience - it should be about what's right. All other nations have stopped doing this. Only Canada and the US do it. If you're a foreigner and you have a child in Germany or France or the UK that kid has no right to the citizenship of the country in which they are born. Citizenship depends on parentage. We ought to be doing the same thing. Edited July 23, 2018 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capricorn Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, Centerpiece said: I don't understand the logic behind granting automatic Canadian citizenship to a newborn whose mother is illegally in Canada. To add to Argus' post, the only exception to automatic citizenship applies to babies born to foreign diplomats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 20 minutes ago, Centerpiece said: You're right - but it's pretty obvious that having a baby increases your chances to stay on "humanitarian" grounds - if only because governments do not want to be accused of being heartless in separating mother and child. Oh, like I just was? Yes, how dare I suggest that the woman should have followed our laws - especially when she wasn't coming from a war-torn country and had connections to Canada and could have easily applied through legal channels, during any of the 5 years she was here illegally......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 21 minutes ago, Centerpiece said: You're right - but it's pretty obvious that having a baby increases your chances to stay on "humanitarian" grounds - if only because governments do not want to be accused of being heartless in separating mother and child. Can you just imagine how The Star and CBC would jump on these types of cases if Stephen Harper was still PM? So if you're here illegally, why not roll the dice if you're OK having a child? Sure, just like why not roll the dice and overstay your visa or cross the border illegally in the hopes that you can beat the odds and be granted PR status. But that's the point: you have to beat the odds. Regardless of claims made by some people, we don't simply throw our hands in the air and allow most people who flout our laws to stay. I agree we could be faster at processing claims and more effectively follow through on deportation orders, but no doubt that would mean a change in government priorities to more effectively resource the entire system - that means tax dollars reallocated from somewhere else, or increased taxation. May also mean a change in government, but if JT is paying attention he will have to at least present some plan to deal with the current migrant issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 18 minutes ago, Goddess said: Oh, like I just was? Yes, how dare I suggest that the woman should have followed our laws - especially when she wasn't coming from a war-torn country and had connections to Canada and could have easily applied through legal channels, during any of the 5 years she was here illegally......... I made it clear more than once that I agreed that woman should be deported, even though she stood to lose her kid and family. You couldn't wait to say "Too fukin bad for her and her kid", and now you whine that you come across as rather heartless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, dialamah said: I made it clear more than once that I agreed that woman should be deported, even though she stood to lose her kid and family. You couldn't wait to say "Too fukin bad for her and her kid", and now you whine that you come across as rather heartless. Where did I say "Too fuckin bad for her and her kid"? Cite, please. I said it was unfortunate that she was being deported and pointed out why she was - she chose to thumb her nose at our laws and she thought she could skirt the law by having a baby here because it works for many. I have some empathy for the mess she now has to deal with - it will be much harder for her to get another visa to get out of Jamaica and harder for Canada to let her back in again, knowing she's already tried to flout the laws and that she doesn't leave when told to. And she did it for no good reason - not coming from an area of the world where she is being persecuted, had lots of time to apply legally, etc. Edited July 23, 2018 by Goddess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turningrite Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 2 hours ago, dialamah said: Damn. I was nearly done posting a longer reply and it all went boom. But briefly: your friend was no doubt accurate in assessing the weakness of the system, but if he's anything like most humans, he's overly-focused on the negative and so I suspect his assessment is only part of the story. Personally I agree that Canada should figure out how to be more efficient at deporting those who need deporting; I just don't think hyperbole and falsehoods need to be part of the discussion. Perhaps this current crisis will lead to more efficient processing. Btw why do you need to identify yourself as "right" or "left"? Must we all claim a "team"? Wouldn't it be easier to avoid stupid partisanship if we avoided joining one team or another, but instead kept our options, and maybe our minds, open? My point is that I used to be reflexively "progressive" about social and political issues, including about immigration. As I learned more, however, my skepticism grew. Maybe it's entirely logical that as we age we become more conservative. Perhaps the Oscar Wilde line that 'youth is wasted on the young' should be revised to note as well that experience and wisdom are too often wasted on the old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 52 minutes ago, Argus said: Hey, she's completely unbiased, you know! She's not on a team or partisan or anything! Hey just cause you can't imagine having empathy for someone even while supporting consequences for their illegal actions doesn't mean others can't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 16 minutes ago, Goddess said: Where did I say "Too fuckin bad for her and her kid"? Cite, please. 2 hours ago, Goddess said: The rest of it, I don't have a lot of sympathy with - Boo Hoo. Don't care about her deportation or the 5 years of living in uncertainty. She wasn't coming from a war-torn country. She CHOSE to roll the dice and hope having a kid here would allow her to completely by-pass our laws. It didn't work out for her. Bye-bye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 11 minutes ago, turningrite said: My point is that I used to be reflexively "progressive" about social and political issues, including about immigration. As I learned more, however, my skepticism grew. Maybe it's entirely logical that as we age we become more conservative. Perhaps the Oscar Wilde line that 'youth is wasted on the young' should be revised to note as well that experience and wisdom are too often wasted on the old. I am labelled progressive here because of not hating certain groups and a tendency to consider more than just simplistic explanations and scenarios and lots of things are assumed about what I believe based on a label I have been given. It's unfortunate and certainly hasn't led to better understanding or discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, dialamah said: Yup. Doesn't say anywhere "Fuck her and her kid." Thanks. Maybe now you can quit re-writing what people say to make it sound the worst possible. I notice you lied about Argus' views on this thread, as well. Edited July 23, 2018 by Goddess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, Goddess said: Yup. Doesn't say anywhere "Fuck her and her kid." Thanks. Maybe now you can quit re-writing what people say to make it sound the worst possible. I notice you lied about Argus' views on this thread, as well. Fuck her and her kid was implied in your words, deny though you will. Argus has said everything I accuse him of saying. I used to go find and post his words as proof but he and his followers are kinda like Trump and Trumptards in their belief in his "rightness" so there's really no point. Only a few people here are the least interested in accuracy or not looking for a fight; else why would a simple statement of mine about women who are deported even with kids result in you and Argus.both attacking me? Neither Turning-rite nor Centerpiece felt it necessary to do so, even though we don't really agree. Funny how you never notice or complain when Argus "lies" about me, or for that matter when you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 1 minute ago, dialamah said: Fuck her and her kid was implied in your words, deny though you will. Argus has said everything I accuse him of saying. I used to go find and post his words as proof but he and his followers are kinda like Trump and Trumptards in their belief in his "rightness" so there's really no point. Only a few people here are the least interested in accuracy or not looking for a fight; else why would a simple statement of mine about women who are deported even with kids result in you and Argus.both attacking me? Neither Turning-rite nor Centerpiece felt it necessary to do so, even though we don't really agree. Funny how you never notice or complain when Argus "lies" about me, or for that matter when you do. No it wasn't implied. It's unfortunate when people have to face the consequences of their own stupid decisions, but no where did I say Fuck her and her kid. Which is why you have to re-write my post. Quote Argus has said everything I accuse him of saying. No, he hasn't. You have continually re-written his posts, as you do with mine. Quote Funny how you never notice or complain when Argus "lies" about me, or for that matter when you do. You have been very clear that none of us are allowed to re-write your posts to the point where they mean something other than what you've said. It would be nice if you quit doing it to others. No one was "attacking you" until you started attacking. As turningrite said, your link did not show that most women who have babies to stay in the country are deported. Only that it happens occasionally, and frankly, I agree that it should. You can make that into me being a morally reprehensible person all you want. Just interesting that you have to re-word everything to attack others....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 ..... 41 minutes ago, Goddess said: No it wasn't implied. It's unfortunate when people have to face the consequences of their own stupid decisions, but no where did I say Fuck her and her kid. Which is why you have to re-write my post. No, he hasn't. You have continually re-written his posts, as you do with mine. You have been very clear that none of us are allowed to re-write your posts to the point where they mean something other than what you've said. It would be nice if you quit doing it to others. No one was "attacking you" until you started attacking. As turningrite said, your link did not show that most women who have babies to stay in the country are deported. Only that it happens occasionally, and frankly, I agree that it should. You can make that into me being a morally reprehensible person all you want. Just interesting that you have to re-word everything to attack others....... Ok. I didn't read your whole post, but I will say I don't think you are morally reprehensible. Your concern and care for Syrian refugees and your work with women leaving JWs would certainly demonstrate where you care. But if I say that its no reward for a woman to lose her family and potentially her child is met with "I have no sympathy for her", why am I wrong for considering that a heartless response? Sure, she deserves to be deported but I don't think I am wrong for feeling empathy. Anyway, I am done ... Being attacked for presenting facts and expressing empathy is not my idea of a good time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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