Has your political viewpoint changed over time?

[angrypenguin]

I used to be a FAR right fiscal conservative (I have no real qualms of anything socially wise). I am more of a center right fiscal conservative now. I believe in progressive taxes, and I do believe that the rich should pay more. The top marginal tax bracket should not exceed 50%, and we should fund things like social housing (not to the extent it is now in Ontario though - e.g. forcing landlords to provide air conditioning when it's >26'C out? - seriously?!. I do believe in funding a good education system for society, and perhaps even supporting and improving subsidized University schooling since that is a possible investment as those kids will end up paying more in taxes one day - but we shouldn't be funding everything.

This post isn't meant to cause a discussion as far as my own viewpoints go, but just an illustration to how I've changed now. So I'm curious, has your political viewpoint changed over time, and if so, what has changed?

[Michael Hardner]

I am far more right-wing and pragmatic than in the past.   That said, the world has drifted to the right quickly - except socially - so it probably doesn't seem that way to others.

[Bonam]

43 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I am far more right-wing and pragmatic than in the past.   That said, the world has drifted to the right quickly - except socially - so it probably doesn't seem that way to others.

Socially, though, the (western) world has moved very much left, and you've moved with it. 

Personally I think over time I've moved to the left on economic issues and maybe slightly right on social ones (probably mostly as an allergic reaction to some of the absurdities of society's leftward social movement). 

[Michael Hardner]

4 minutes ago, Bonam said:

1) Socially, though, the (western) world has moved very much left, and you've moved with it. 

2) Personally I think over time I've moved to the left on economic issues and maybe slightly right on social ones (probably mostly as an allergic reaction to some of the absurdities of society's leftward social movement). 

1) No doubt there

2) Hard right ?  Or relative ?

[angrypenguin]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

I am far more right-wing and pragmatic than in the past.   That said, the world has drifted to the right quickly - except socially - so it probably doesn't seem that way to others.

Can you please elaborate why you feel the world has drifted to the right? If you are referencing economically, I don't really see this. The UK/France/Germany and almost all of the EU countries have drifted left. Canada is drifting left. Yes, the US is drifting right after drifting left for several years, but all up, I don't agree with you that the world is drifting right, but maybe I'm missing something.

Here are a few countries that have also been drifting left: Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan, Japan, off the top of my head.

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, angrypenguin said:

1) Can you please elaborate why you feel the world has drifted to the right? If you are referencing economically, I don't really see this.

2) The UK/France/Germany and almost all of the EU countries have drifted left. Canada is drifting left. Yes, the US is drifting right after drifting left for several years, but all up, I don't agree with you that the world is drifting right, but maybe I'm missing something.

3) Here are a few countries that have also been drifting left: Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan, Japan, off the top of my head.

1) Really ?  When I was youngish, Ronald Reagan was the epitome of the Goldwater "new right" come to power.  His tax rates were far higher than Obama's.

2) How are they drifting left ?  The EU is under austerity now and has had to curtail social spending.  I can't say that I know what EU tax rates are but ... here's the first image I found - see below:

3) Outright socialist countries are on the wane since 1990 with the collapse of the USSR

 

[angrypenguin]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

1) Really ?  When I was youngish, Ronald Reagan was the epitome of the Goldwater "new right" come to power.  His tax rates were far higher than Obama's.

2) How are they drifting left ?  The EU is under austerity now and has had to curtail social spending.  I can't say that I know what EU tax rates are but ... here's the first image I found - see below:

3) Outright socialist countries are on the wane since 1990 with the collapse of the USSR

 

I think I finally figured out why we're off. I suspect it's my fault as I didn't set the timeframe appropriately in my OP. I have been looking at a period of about 1-maybe 8 years. You're looking deeper into the realm of history. It was, what, maybe 8 years ago that Britain was under Conservative rule? Since then, that has changed. I can't remember the last time a Conservative party led any EU country, and any Asian country (again, within the last 8 years).

[Michael Hardner]

Ah ok, well 1 year is nothing in the overall scheme of things.  You need at least 8-10 to see a trend IMO.  And as such, you may be right in your timeframe...

[eyeball]

On 5/31/2018 at 9:46 AM, Michael Hardner said:

I am far more right-wing and pragmatic than in the past.   That said, the world has drifted to the right quickly - except socially - so it probably doesn't seem that way to others.

You seem more like a radical far centre centrist to me.  All I know is that the more we attract posters like angrypenguin the more I think it would be fun to round up conservatives and re-educate them.

Fat chance that'll ever make a difference though.       

[Michael Hardner]

10 hours ago, eyeball said:

You seem more like a radical far centre centrist to me.  All I know is that the more we attract posters like angrypenguin the more I think it would be fun to round up conservatives and re-educate them.

Fat chance that'll ever make a difference though.       

There are some examples.  Comedian Sarah Silverman engaged with a troll, and after awhile he dumped MAGA and joined the human race.  Keep in mind a lot of these people have never followed politics, and are getting an entry point through the outrage media and fake news.  A smaller number are just angry and stubborn.  The smallest number are those who make the Faustian bargain for lower taxes.  

[Michael Hardner]

10 hours ago, eyeball said:

You seem more like a radical far centre centrist to me.  All I know is that the more we attract posters like angrypenguin the more I think it would be fun to round up conservatives and re-educate them.

Fat chance that'll ever make a difference though.       

My favourite thing about Canadian Conservatives is their pragmatic viewpoint on debt.  Of course, it was really derived from NDP patron saint Tommy Douglas:

Quote

New Democrats used to point to the example of the sainted Tommy Douglas, who produced 17 balanced budgets during his 17 years as premier of Saskatchewan. He always said taxpayers’ dollars should be spent on improving services, not sent to the banks to pay interest on debt.

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2018/04/22/ontario-ndp-is-bold-and-relatively-responsible.html

I know Canadian Conservatives personally and their pragmatism and social liberalism marks them as fine people.  Here's another example of pioneering Canadian Conservatism.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/commons-approves-transgender-rights-bill-1.1302626

Quote

A bill that would make it illegal to discriminate against transgender Canadians was approved by the House of Commons today.

...

[Foreign Affairs Minister John] Baird, Finance Minister Jim Flaherty, Labour Minister Lisa Raitt and Heritage Minister James Moore were among the Conservatives who supported the bill.

 

[eyeball]

What the world really needs are conservatives who can put the words conserve and environment together in the same sentence.

[eyeball]

Quote

 

A bill that would make it illegal to discriminate against transgender Canadians was approved by the House of Commons today.

...

[Foreign Affairs Minister John] Baird, Finance Minister Jim Flaherty, Labour Minister Lisa Raitt and Heritage Minister James Moore were among the Conservatives who supported the bill.

 

Yeah, that was only because we forced them to do it. Us commies are famous for forcing right-wingers to do things that should be anathema to them. 

[Michael Hardner]

40 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Yeah, that was only because we forced them to do it. Us commies are famous for forcing right-wingers to do things that should be anathema to them. 

Yeah... no.  Those four voted out of conscience IMO.  

[Argus]

On 5/31/2018 at 2:39 PM, Michael Hardner said:

1) Really ?  When I was youngish, Ronald Reagan was the epitome of the Goldwater "new right" come to power.  His tax rates were far higher than Obama's.

You have to differentiate between what is written and the actual tax rates being paid, especially given the amount of graft and corruption in US government.

On 5/31/2018 at 2:39 PM, Michael Hardner said:

2) How are they drifting left ?  The EU is under austerity now and has had to curtail social spending.  I can't say that I know what EU tax rates are but ... here's the first image I found - see below:

When you run out of money and already have world leading tax rates you don't have a hell of a lot of choice but to curtail spending. As to your graph, I would suggest the falling corporate tax rates are not so much a matter of ideology but practicality in the offshoring age, where companies can fairly easily relocate to lower tax jurisdictions if your tax rates aren't competitive. 

An actual move to the right (fiscally) would see countries striving for balanced budgets and lower taxes and smaller government as matters of principal. I don't see that happening much. I see countries trying to borrow less because they already own a ton of money and bankers are threatening to further lower their credit ratings. 

 

[Bonam]

On 5/31/2018 at 10:39 AM, Michael Hardner said:

1) No doubt there

2) Hard right ?  Or relative ?

How far right have I moved? I mean, you probably know from these forums. I'm still firmly against what anyone in the US would call "social conservatism". Anything to do with religion and moralizing, count me out. But I guess on some issues like for example immigration, I used to be an open borders kind of person, whereas now I think it should be limited to probably lower numbers than now, and criteria strictly set for the benefit of the receiving country. I used to be 100% for environmentalism everything else be damned, but now I understand the importance of balancing conservation of the environment with economic realities and needs. I used to be all for change for the sake of change, whereas now I also understand the value of established traditions and institutions and the potential downside of disrupting them. For example, if you asked me 10 years ago about how I feel about Canada having a queen, I would have ranted at you about how the whole idea seems against the ideals of equality and democracy and what not, but today I'd just be like, well, it's worked pretty well for a long time so why change it?

[JamesHackerMP]

I used to be a Republican, then went to being a RINO, then an independent (unaffiliated) voter.

[turningrite]

On 6/3/2018 at 2:32 PM, Bonam said:

How far right have I moved? I mean, you probably know from these forums. I'm still firmly against what anyone in the US would call "social conservatism". Anything to do with religion and moralizing, count me out. But I guess on some issues like for example immigration, I used to be an open borders kind of person, whereas now I think it should be limited to probably lower numbers than now, and criteria strictly set for the benefit of the receiving country. I used to be 100% for environmentalism everything else be damned, but now I understand the importance of balancing conservation of the environment with economic realities and needs. I used to be all for change for the sake of change, whereas now I also understand the value of established traditions and institutions and the potential downside of disrupting them. For example, if you asked me 10 years ago about how I feel about Canada having a queen, I would have ranted at you about how the whole idea seems against the ideals of equality and democracy and what not, but today I'd just be like, well, it's worked pretty well for a long time so why change it?

I pretty much agree with most things you've said here. I've always been liberal on so-called morality issues but have moved gradually to the right in my economic views. I've also come to oppose the strident campaigns of politically correct and virtue signalling progressivism. I'm not an opponent of immigration and certainly don't think it should be restricted by race or place of origin. But I believe immigration levels should be kept at levels that don't negatively impact those already living and working in this country. I think government spending should be reined in to a degree reasonably possible without sacrificing essential programs and taxation should be rationalized to ensure it doesn't suppress innovation, self-sufficiency or growth. The only issue on which we substantially disagree is the monarchy. I just don't get it. I was raised by an American mother and a half French-Canadian father and have simply never understood its value to a modern Canada. I've been in Britain many times, where it's part of the tourist industry, which perhaps renders it valuable to the Brits. Some ask "What harm does it do us?" and maybe there's some validity in that argument. But it seems a lukewarm endorsement, at best.

Edited June 18, 2018 by turningrite

[Penderyn]

I intended to go and settle in 'Israel' (what's a foreskin between friends?) but, fortunately, I met a couple of Palestinians (in a London pub) , who took me apart intellectually.   I changed the discussion as to whether they ought to be drinking and was taken apart again on the Prophet's intentions.   Saved me a lifetime's disillusionment, that session!

[-TSS-]

Church and state should be separate ( self-evident for you guys there in North-America but not so much for us here in Europe). Religion should not be a career or a livelihood for anyone nor should it have any hierarchy. (This is 21st century talk, prior to that it would be childish and naive beyond words)