Another flag flap

[Cartman]

http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/Article...?hub=topstories

Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Danny Williams wants all Canadian flags taken down from provincial government buildings. The move comes in protest over failed talks with the federal government on offshore oil revenue.

Why should NFLD's resources be exempt from taxation when calculating equalization payments? If they are exempt, will they not just receive more dollars derived from Alberta's oil royalties?

[Cartman]

I thought this to be an interesting link on equalization payments. Check out the bar chart.

http://www.fin.gc.ca/FEDPROV/eqpe.html

[I miss Reagan]

The liberals are intent on keeping Newfies on the dole. Talk about a classic abusive relationship. Good for Williams for standing up to the nanny state. Alberta should have taking down the maple leaf long ago.

[maplesyrup]

Williams is a disgrace and the federal government should impose trusteeship over Newfoundland and Labrador. It's time to merge the four Atlantic provinces anyways. If you gave Canadians the option I am sure they would vote to abolish the provinces altogether.

[I miss Reagan]

Well it seems as though the elites in Ottawa have managed to alienate Quebec, the West, and finally Atlantic Canada is refusing to be bought off. Perhaps rather than separation we should think about kicking central Canada out of confederation. Let the Balkinization begin.

[Newfie Canadian]

Why should NFLD's resources be exempt from taxation when calculating equalization payments? If they are exempt, will they not just receive more dollars derived from Alberta's oil royalties?

As I understand it, NL wants to keep all of it's royalties from the offshore oil and have those resources exempt from the equalization clawback until such time as NL becomes a "have province". The clawback now is at 70%, meaning for every dollar NL receives in offshore royalties Ottawa takes back 70¢ in equalization payments.

In the long run, wouldn't it benefit Ontario, Alberta and Saskatchewan to have another "have province"?

The liberals are intent on keeping Newfies on the dole.

This has been brewing for a long time with the apparent belief in the bureaucratic and political mentalities that Canada ends with Nova Scotia.

Take for example the recent closure of the Gander weather office, with the service and most of the jobs being moved to Halifax.

The weather forecast has been atrocious since (it wasn't the best before).

Williams is a disgrace

Around here he's a bigger hero than Robin Hood was in Nottingham.

It goes back to what IMR said about someone finally standing up for NL, especially when you've got Martin on the record as saying he'd do this when he needed the seats and backtracking after he's got them.

This has all ensured 3 things: Danny Williams is going to get himself re-elected, Paul Martin is going to lose at least 5 seats in the next federal election and John Efford is the new Sheriff of Nottingham to Paul Martin's Prince John.

I personally don't agree with the flag situation. I think it's a little childish and melodramatic.

But you have to admit, it's got everyone's attention.

[Big Blue Machine]

I think this flag incident takes this rift onto a whole new level. The federal gov't should give at least 90% of the revenues back to the province.The revenues that the province makes, they should keep. Hopefully Martin won't try a Trudeau and tax the revenue that the provinces make from offshore oil.

[brianw]

I don't see what all the fuss is about.

The Liberals can just ask business owners to submit fake invoices for flags that don't exist and the federal government can pretend they put the flags back up.

Heck they can tell people they passed out 1,000,000 flags and have the invoice to prove it (just like they did in Quebec).

But of course they would need to dip into that oil money to pay an ad firm to pass a cheque along to the business that didn't supply the flags. If they get more than one business that supplies a fake invoice do they get to pay more than one ad firm a transfer fee?

[Cartman]

The clawback now is at 70%, meaning for every dollar NL receives in offshore royalties Ottawa takes back 70¢ in equalization payments.

In the long run, wouldn't it benefit Ontario, Alberta and Saskatchewan to have another "have province"?

I was hoping you would react to this issue NC.

I accept the argument that NFLD requires time to develop this industry and become a "have" province. I do not, however, believe that any province has the right to demand exemption from natural resource taxation forever and simultaneously expect the benefits of transfer payments forever. Some time ago, August created an interesting, if largely ignored thread, asking why Albertans should exclusively benefit from our/their natural resources. If memory serves, there was no good reason ever given.

BTW, I am not arguing that people from NFLD are demanding as much, but Williams sounds rather harsh and quite demanding.

[Bakunin]

NFLD should nationalize oil and use it to stimulate its economy. If the central government doesnt help them then they have to help themselve and im happy to learn that they have the guts to do it.

[theloniusfleabag]

In a delicate situation like this, I would advocate carpet-bombing.

I have to agree with Newfie Canadian,

I personally don't agree with the flag situation. I think it's a little childish and melodramatic.

But you have to admit, it's got everyone's attention.

however, everyone has raised some very valid points.

[Guest eureka]

Is anyone actually doing the math? If the oil revenues would put Newfoundland over the top, then why would it continue to receive Equalization payments that would be subject to "clawback.?" There is something missing in the presentation of the facts to the public.

I have not yet seen the figures.

[August1991]

NFLD should nationalize oil and use it to stimulate its economy.

Nationalized like Hydro-Quebec? H-Q only makes a profit because of the revenues from Churchill Falls - how ironic.

In a delicate situation like this, I would advocate carpet-bombing.

Ottawa doesn't have the means. Could Nfld be tied to a mullah somehow?

I personally don't agree with the flag situation. I think it's a little childish and melodramatic.

But you have to admit, it's got everyone's attention.

In Quebec, the only Canadian flags are in front of federal office buildings and some private corporations. I see no harm in this at all. Canada is not really a country - it's more a geographic term, like the equator.

Is anyone actually doing the math? If the oil revenues would put Newfoundland over the top, then why would it continue to receive Equalization payments that would be subject to "clawback.?

The equalization formula is complex, subject to politics and truly can't be separated from federal/provincial economic relations (who pays for what and who taxes what).

Nevertheless, as I understand it, the Nfld government would lose 70 cents of every dollar in oil royalties to Ottawa. (Alberta is nowhere near such a federal tax rate - correct me if I'm wrong with these numbers.)

Incidentally, our welfare system suffers the same flaw. Poor people pay much higher tax rates for any new income than any rich person ever pays.

[Clinton fixed (sort of) this problem in the US. We are miles and miles from dealing with it here.]

Danny Williams should be happy to keep his 30 cents. It's better than nothing.

[caesar]

Give me a break. Once they make the money they do not need our extra help. It is about time that they started supporting themselves/

[Bakunin]

Nationalized like Hydro-Quebec? H-Q only makes a profit because of the revenues from Churchill Falls - how ironic.

Don't exagerate, HQ is highly profitable even without churchill falls. They manage to sell electricity under the market place and give billions to the government and they still make profit. Im sure a private entreprise could make more money but it would be less profitable for the government (wich gets extra money) and the population(wich get lower price, lots of quality jobs and higher quality service).

I think it should be nationalize because i think all the newfie have the right to benefit from that.

[August1991]

Don't exagerate, HQ is highly profitable even without churchill falls.

H-Q has annual profits around $1 billion. That's not far from what it makes off Churchill Falls alone.

Since full power came on stream from Churchill Falls in 1976, Hydro- Quebec has received benefits averaging about $600 million a year.

Nfld Government 1996 doc

I think that $600 million is higher now. The profits on Churchill Falls are phenomenal. They have allowed H-Q to be bloated and inefficient.

H-Q loses alot on the domestic market since its electricity prices are far below world prices (or export prices).

[Bakunin]

Thats not the point, they make billions even with low price, 600 millions less wouldn't make it unprofitable.

And i don't understand, if you want to make electricity, it cost something, its not less profitable because its in the labrador. There still have to pay employes and the equipment. Maybe they have a good deal but their is no way they make more profit than with the baie james.

They brings lots of good quality jobs. They pay well, the price can be controled, they give billions to the government. Its not a perfect system but its far better than any private enteprise could do.

[Newfie Canadian]

I do not, however, believe that any province has the right to demand exemption from natural resource taxation forever and simultaneously expect the benefits of transfer payments forever.

And that's not what they are asking for, Cartman.

Williams has stated as recently as yesterday on national television that NL is not looking for equaliztion and all the revenues after NL becomes a "have province". Once the "have province" status has been acheived, equalization would stop.

but Williams sounds rather harsh and quite demanding.

Yes he does. I'm not sure if he's playing up to the NL public or if it out of true frustration. Probably both.

He's getting support though. The local radio phone in shows has been tremendously positive for the premier.

A popular NL Senator, Liberal George Baker has come out with his support for Williams.

Conversely, Natural Resources minister John Efford (from my own riding of Avalon) is taking a huge pounding over this.

Danny Williams should be happy to keep his 30 cents. It's better than nothing.

I'm afraid August, that that is the attitude that has plagued NL for a long time and that Williams is apparently trying (at least in public view) to shed.

Once they make the money they do not need our extra help. It is about time that they started supporting themselves/

That's the whole point caesar.

[Argus]

NFLD should nationalize oil and use it to stimulate its economy. If the central government doesnt help them then they have to help themselve and im happy to learn that they have the guts to do it.

Newfoundland hasn't got the money to nationalize anything. Further, the whole argument is not about controlling the profits but about whether they can continue to get welfare money while working.

Basically.

[Argus]

I think this flag incident takes this rift onto a whole new level. The federal gov't should give at least 90% of the revenues back to the province.The revenues that the province makes, they should keep. Hopefully Martin won't try a Trudeau and tax the revenue that the provinces make from offshore oil.

Just a minute. If the provinces get to keep revenues from natural resouces why shouldn't Ontario get to keep its revenues? Why should national resources be exempt from consideration in wealth, GDP or for equalization?

[Argus]

I personally don't agree with the flag situation. I think it's a little childish and melodramatic.

But you have to admit, it's got everyone's attention.

Yes, but not in a way likely to garner much sympathy for Newfoundland. Especially among those of us who foot the bills.

[Argus]

In Quebec, the only Canadian flags are in front of federal office buildings and some private corporations. I see no harm in this at all. Canada is not really a country - it's more a geographic term, like the equator.

Maybe if you Quebecers don't think Canada is a country you should leave. I mean, really. If the entire reason Quebec remains is to continue to suck on the federal teat because you can't make it on your own then I for one would rather you were just be booted out the door.

[Argus]

I do not, however, believe that any province has the right to demand exemption from natural resource taxation forever and simultaneously expect the benefits of transfer payments forever.

And that's not what they are asking for, Cartman.

Williams has stated as recently as yesterday on national television that NL is not looking for equaliztion and all the revenues after NL becomes a "have province". Once the "have province" status has been acheived, equalization would stop.

And any Newfoundland govenrment would do its absolute level best to ensure it NEVER became a "have" province, because of that. Whether that required tax cuts or production cuts or playing with the books.

[Newfie Canadian]

Yes, but not in a way likely to garner much sympathy for Newfoundland. Especially among those of us who foot the bills.

I love this response.

As I said, the show may be for the emotional benefit of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

As for footing the bills, get the deal done, hopefully bring us up to "have" status so we can start helping out.

Maybe then people with the attitude like the one you are displaying can sleep at night.

And any Newfoundland govenrment would do its absolute level best to ensure it NEVER became a "have" province, because of that.

I find this hard to believe.

Let's not forget that we aren't the only one being shafted here in these negotiations.

While Premier Hamm is being more diplomatic and patient than our rookie premier, he still don't have a deal either.

I get a great kick out of some of the attitudes of some mainland Canadians.

Ontarians and Albertans contribute to equalization and some complain about it. Other provinces try to get a deal to help them get off equalization and some complain about it.

Hard to please much?

[Big Blue Machine]

Give the provinces what they want. Make them happy so you can build a better relationship.