betsy Posted May 30, 2017 Author Report Posted May 30, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, JamesHackerMP said: Interesting. And do you do anything in your life that contradicts the scriptures? Do I sin? Of course. Who doesn't? Quote You seem to not take into account that different people have different opinions on what contradicts the scriptures. Differences in opinion doesn't matter. It's what's in the Scriptures - that's what matters. Just because people have varying opinions doesn't change what's written in the Scriptures. Quote On page one you said "consistency throughout," if I read that correctly. Oh really? In Acts 1:18-19, Judas died from his stomach exploding. But in Matthew 27:5, he hanged himself. That sort of "consistency"? Yes, it's consistent. Both had happened to him. Matthew 27 5 Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself. Acts 1 18 (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. Quote Judas hanged himself in the potter’s field (Matthew 27:5), and then, after his body decayed and bloated, evidently the rope broke, and he burst into pieces on the land of the potter’s field (Acts 1:18-19). The Acts passage presumes Judas' hanging, as a man falling down in a field does not result in his body bursting open. Only decomposition and a fall from a height could cause a body to burst open. https://www.gotquestions.org/Judas-die.html Quote The truth of the matter is, however, like the accounts of Jesus’ resurrection (and many other Bible events) these two verses simply supplement each other. It is not an either/or scenario. Judas, indeed, “hanged himself,” and sometime later, his body fell headfirst, causing his midsection to burst open. What would cause his “stomach” or midsection to split open? Consider the following. When a person dies, the body begins to decompose. If left to itself (and not acted upon by the attempt to preserve the body, e.g., embalming), bacteria soon begin to break down various tissues. As a result, gases are released within the body, which in turn cause it to swell. A few years ago, the news media reported how a 50-ton sperm whale had beached itself on the shores of Taiwan and died. While on its way to being transported through a Taiwanese city to a particular research center, the swollen whale literally exploded and soaked pedestrians and motorists in blood and entrails. According to one Taiwanese scientist, “Because of the natural decomposing process, a lot of gases accumulated, and when the pressure build-up was too great, the whale’s belly exploded” (“Whale Explodes...,” 2004). In light of such events, it certainly is not difficult to imagine that a dead human body, which may have been swelling for a number of days, could have fallen a short distance (from wherever it was hanging), and easily burst open when striking the ground. Matthew 27:5 and Acts 1:18 cannot be accepted as legitimately contradicting each other if it is possible for both to be true http://apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=6&article=1761 Quote There have also been examples of spontaneously exploding whales. The most widely reported example was in Taiwan in 2004, when the buildup of gas inside a decomposing sperm whale caused it to explode in a crowded urban area while it was being transported for a post-mortem examination. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploding_whale Edited May 30, 2017 by betsy Quote
betsy Posted May 30, 2017 Author Report Posted May 30, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, JamesHackerMP said: Betsy, about thou shalt not kill: what about soldiers who defend our respective countries? Are they evil? Seems to me like there certainly is a bit of leeway and a need to "interpret" something, not just take it literally and absolutely. God doesn't always take the "short path" or make it easy, does He? You see what I mean now? James, there are things in the Bible that are interpreted differently. As an example - the days of creation. Some take the days literally as in human days, whereas others don't. Varying viewpoints - but at the end of the day, does the age of the earth really matters? No. God's message is not for us to believe that the earth is this, or that old - God's message is for us to believe that, He is the Creator. Edited May 30, 2017 by betsy Quote
DogOnPorch Posted May 30, 2017 Report Posted May 30, 2017 11 minutes ago, betsy said: James, there are things in the Bible that are interpreted differently. As an example - the days of creation. Some take the days literally as in human days, whereas others don't. Varying viewpoints - but at the end of the day, does the age of the earth really matters? No. God's message is not for us to believe that the earth is this, or that old - God's message is for us to believe that, He is the Creator. Day lengths matter: your Bronze Age writers only had the Earth day to compare anything to. Nothing else could even occur to them...billion year days for example. Other things to remember: Bronze Age people we unaware they were living on a planet going around the Sun. Unaware exactly how pregnancy worked. Unaware that fusing hydrogen into helium causes the release of energy. Unaware etc, etc, etc... Unaware of all the various things YOU take for granted. But, as I've explained to you, it is IMPOSSIBLE for both our star (the Sun) and our planet (Earth) to have been formed "In the Beginning" of anything...due to metallicity which you have some issue grasping, yourself. One needs other stars to both LIVE and DIE in supernovae to make metal rich stars/planets as all the heavy elements needed for life are beyond helium on the Periodic Table....which I assume you've heard of, at least. Our star is a Type G yellow dwarf and we know how it works...when it will die and when it was born. It is about 5 billion Earth years old. The Universe is MUCH older than that.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_nucleosynthesis I suppose one other factor that enters into the whole God created everything in the beginning scenario is that "God" continues to make new stars and planets even as we type...why does your God insist on hitting the "new game" button on the holy X-Box? Are they going to empty and void of life? All of them? Really?? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
betsy Posted May 30, 2017 Author Report Posted May 30, 2017 (edited) 30 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: Day lengths matter: your Bronze Age writers only had the Earth day to compare anything to. Nothing else could even occur to them...billion year days for example. Other things to remember: Bronze Age people we unaware they were living on a planet going around the Sun. Unaware exactly how pregnancy worked. Unaware that fusing hydrogen into helium causes the release of energy. Unaware etc, etc, etc... Unaware of all the various things YOU take for granted. But, as I've explained to you, it is IMPOSSIBLE for both our star (the Sun) and our planet (Earth) to have been formed "In the Beginning" of anything...due to metallicity which you have some issue grasping, yourself. One needs other stars to both LIVE and DIE in supernovae to make metal rich stars/planets as all the heavy elements needed for life are beyond helium on the Periodic Table....which I assume you've heard of, at least. Our star is a Type G yellow dwarf and we know how it works...when it will die and when it was born. It is about 5 billion Earth years old. The Universe is MUCH older than that.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_nucleosynthesis I suppose one other factor that enters into the whole God created everything in the beginning scenario is that "God" continues to make new stars and planets even as we type...why does your God insist on hitting the "new game" button on the holy X-Box? Are they going to empty and void of life? All of them? Really?? The age of the earth shouldn't matter. It's a non-issue. The day could be literally a 24-hour earth day, or equivalent to thousands of years (God's day). The age of the earth is not the subject in Genesis. The message is that the Abrahamic God created everything. Quote But, as I've explained to you, it is IMPOSSIBLE for both our star (the Sun) and our planet (Earth) to have been formed "In the Beginning" of anything...due to metallicity which you have some issue grasping, yourself. I've already responded to your metallicity. Furthermore....you aren't grasping the concept of an omnipotent God. Nothing is impossible to Him! Edited May 30, 2017 by betsy Quote
DogOnPorch Posted May 30, 2017 Report Posted May 30, 2017 1 minute ago, betsy said: The age of the earth shouldn't matter. It's a non-issue. The day could be literally a 24-hour earth day, or equivalent to thousands of years (God's day). The age of the earth is not the subject in Genesis. The message is that the Abrahamic God created everything. You pretty much ignored my points indicating you don't comprehend metallicity even in layman's terms. For example: do humans need iron to live? Where does iron come from? Saying "God did it" doesn't satisfy science... So: where did iron come from? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
TTM Posted May 30, 2017 Report Posted May 30, 2017 (edited) 21 hours ago, betsy said: Of course there are. Thou shalt not murder. Isn't that clear enough? No murder except: witches, homosexuals, fortune tellers, nonbelievers, believers in other religions, blasphemers, false prophets, people who don't listen to priests (or judges), children who strike or curse their parents, adulterers (men and women), fornicators (women only), people who work on sunday. Then it's justified. Edited May 30, 2017 by TTM spelling Quote
taxme Posted May 30, 2017 Report Posted May 30, 2017 6 hours ago, betsy said: Well.....isn't that quite ironic? Arguing about the Bible, which you admitted to have not read at all - and instead, believing what others say about it - is exactly like which you described above. I told you already that I have read parts of the bible, and could not figure out as to what was being said. Most of it made no sense at all. How can anyone who considers themselves having some intelligence is able to pick up the bible, and read it from beginning to end, and totally will get what it all says? It is impossible. I will bet that you cannot even understand half of what is written in the bible yourself? Quote
taxme Posted May 30, 2017 Report Posted May 30, 2017 6 hours ago, betsy said: A "gander?" You had a glance at it? It takes so many re-readings (and with the help of a Bible-Study book which helps explain the relevancy of some phrases at that time - like customs, traditions, word-meaning, etc.,) to be able to have a good grasp of it. Whatever you say. Enjoy reading your bible. I will stick to reading what the alternative media has to say. What they say makes a lot more sense to me than the bible does, and I can learn more from reading AM rather than trying to read and try to understand what the bible is trying to point out. I prefer to live in the real world, not a dream world. Quote
betsy Posted May 31, 2017 Author Report Posted May 31, 2017 18 hours ago, DogOnPorch said: You pretty much ignored my points indicating you don't comprehend metallicity even in layman's terms. For example: do humans need iron to live? Where does iron come from? Saying "God did it" doesn't satisfy science... So: where did iron come from? The Bible isn't meant to satisfy science. Quote
betsy Posted May 31, 2017 Author Report Posted May 31, 2017 14 hours ago, TTM said: No murder except: witches, homosexuals, fortune tellers, nonbelievers, believers in other religions, blasphemers, false prophets, people who don't listen to priests (or judges), children who strike or curse their parents, adulterers (men and women), fornicators (women only), people who work on sunday. Then it's justified. ????? I don't understand what you're saying. Quote
betsy Posted May 31, 2017 Author Report Posted May 31, 2017 (edited) 14 hours ago, taxme said: I told you already that I have read parts of the bible, and could not figure out as to what was being said. Most of it made no sense at all. How can anyone who considers themselves having some intelligence is able to pick up the bible, and read it from beginning to end, and totally will get what it all says? It is impossible. I will bet that you cannot even understand half of what is written in the bible yourself? You know, I was like you way back. I tried to read the Bible and I don't think I even got past Genesis that I gave up. But later in life, when I started having this "hunger" within me, I was surfing the channels and happened to tune in on Charles Price (Living Truth) on tv. It seemed like he was talking to me. He would read a passage from the Bible, and then explained it in layman's terms. It's like a light bulb suddenly getting turned on. He made the Bible seem so easy to read and understand. I went for the Bible and checked out what he was reading - and yes! I could see it! That was the beginning - there was no turning back for me. I started reading the Bible everyday! A paragraph or a chapter each day. I also use a Bible Study Bible, and I've been doing this for years now. Seek and you shall find, promised Jesus. I think, if we have the sincerity in our desire to seek Him , God will guide us to Him. Edited May 31, 2017 by betsy Quote
betsy Posted May 31, 2017 Author Report Posted May 31, 2017 (edited) 14 hours ago, taxme said: Whatever you say. Enjoy reading your bible. I will stick to reading what the alternative media has to say. What they say makes a lot more sense to me than the bible does, and I can learn more from reading AM rather than trying to read and try to understand what the bible is trying to point out. I prefer to live in the real world, not a dream world. So many people suffer from depression. I did - but not the kind of depression that required professional help or medication. It's just the feeling of simply existing, yet not living. Plodding on everyday....with a heavy burden. Tiresome. The world we live in, is ugly. Just look around you. Read the papers.. Despite so many "feel good" alternatives, and yet, so many people feel unfulfilled. So many keep seeking for that which satisfies. But the satisfaction so superficial and so shallow....so they seek some more. So many see their life going to waste, because they couldn't keep up with this world. It's like being in a carnival and seeing all the bright lights and all the goodies. They couldn't have what they want. They stare at a life that has no meaning. So many even decide there's no point in living. I think what is real, is what truly transforms, and provides relief, and hope. It gives strength, and courage. It enables. Something that satisfies that inner core. The burden is lifted. It's something you can actually feel. Depends on how we see things. How many among the rich and famous, the ones whom we try to emulate....are on depression pills? In rehabs? In therapy? In counselling? Sometimes, what we think is real......... is simply a mirage. Edited May 31, 2017 by betsy Quote
DogOnPorch Posted May 31, 2017 Report Posted May 31, 2017 5 hours ago, betsy said: The Bible isn't meant to satisfy science. Obviously. Your Bible folk thought many very UNSCIENTIFIC things and I doubt they used a control group and testing to determine any of it. So why claim the Bible is scientific as you're doing? It's a tad like 1001 Inventions by Islam...human flight and manned rocketry being examples of Islam's inventions. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted May 31, 2017 Report Posted May 31, 2017 For example: when...heh...Jesus returns...will the stars fall from the heavens as per Revelations? If your answer is yes, might I point out how large even tiny stars are? If no...well...what is the Bible really saying? If it is a parable...as most Bible verses tend to be...why isn't it ALL parable? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
taxme Posted May 31, 2017 Report Posted May 31, 2017 9 hours ago, betsy said: So many people suffer from depression. I did - but not the kind of depression that required professional help or medication. It's just the feeling of simply existing, yet not living. Plodding on everyday....with a heavy burden. Tiresome. The world we live in, is ugly. Just look around you. Read the papers.. Despite so many "feel good" alternatives, and yet, so many people feel unfulfilled. So many keep seeking for that which satisfies. But the satisfaction so superficial and so shallow....so they seek some more. So many see their life going to waste, because they couldn't keep up with this world. It's like being in a carnival and seeing all the bright lights and all the goodies. They couldn't have what they want. They stare at a life that has no meaning. So many even decide there's no point in living. I think what is real, is what truly transforms, and provides relief, and hope. It gives strength, and courage. It enables. Something that satisfies that inner core. The burden is lifted. It's something you can actually feel. Depends on how we see things. How many among the rich and famous, the ones whom we try to emulate....are on depression pills? In rehabs? In therapy? In counselling? Sometimes, what we think is real......... is simply a mirage. Well, all all I am going to say here is that why would a loving god create all the wonders and beauty of the earth, and all life on earth itself, and continue to allow the carnage, mayhem, havoc, and chaos to go on for all these centuries? I think by now that if I were god I would have said long ago that this is not working. Enough already. How much suffering does your god need to see before he fixes the problem? Maybe god just don't give a dam, and actually enjoys watching all the human suffering that has been going on for such a very long time now. After all, maybe just having humans tend sheep all day is not very exciting for him. Even in the animal world, I have to wonder why would god would create an animal that has to kill another animal just to survive. If god wanted to he could have set an example for man/woman and show that in the animal kingdom there is no animal killing another animal. Might sound a little crazy, but why not? It is not we human mortals that need to explain for our actions, but god himself. Quote
taxme Posted May 31, 2017 Report Posted May 31, 2017 9 hours ago, betsy said: You know, I was like you way back. I tried to read the Bible and I don't think I even got past Genesis that I gave up. But later in life, when I started having this "hunger" within me, I was surfing the channels and happened to tune in on Charles Price (Living Truth) on tv. It seemed like he was talking to me. He would read a passage from the Bible, and then explained it in layman's terms. It's like a light bulb suddenly getting turned on. He made the Bible seem so easy to read and understand. I went for the Bible and checked out what he was reading - and yes! I could see it! That was the beginning - there was no turning back for me. I started reading the Bible everyday! A paragraph or a chapter each day. I also use a Bible Study Bible, and I've been doing this for years now. Seek and you shall find, promised Jesus. I think, if we have the sincerity in our desire to seek Him , God will guide us to Him. Nice story but at this stage of my life I am not going to waste any of the time I left on earth wondering or worrying about what gods plans were for all of us. When that so-called judgement day comes he will have his hands full trying to decide as to who will go to heaven and who gets to go to hell. With billions upon billions of people who have gone onto their deaths all these years, and I am pretty sure that there will be many more to go yet, I can see one hell of a lineup of dead and still living people all waiting in line for their turn to stand before god and hear about their fate. A big task ahead for god. Maybe you will get to sit next to him, and get to judge me? Hey, you never know. Quote
TTM Posted June 1, 2017 Report Posted June 1, 2017 22 hours ago, betsy said: I don't understand what you're saying. These are all groups that the bible explicitly tells you to kill, despite "thou shalt not kill" Quote
betsy Posted June 1, 2017 Author Report Posted June 1, 2017 20 hours ago, DogOnPorch said: Obviously. Your Bible folk thought many very UNSCIENTIFIC things and I doubt they used a control group and testing to determine any of it. So why claim the Bible is scientific as you're doing? It's a tad like 1001 Inventions by Islam...human flight and manned rocketry being examples of Islam's inventions. I'm not claiming the Bible is a scientific Book. I'm claiming that modern science had reaffirmed some of the statements in the Bible! Big difference, DOP. Quote
betsy Posted June 1, 2017 Author Report Posted June 1, 2017 (edited) 18 hours ago, taxme said: Well, all all I am going to say here is that why would a loving god create all the wonders and beauty of the earth, and all life on earth itself, and continue to allow the carnage, mayhem, havoc, and chaos to go on for all these centuries? I think by now that if I were god I would have said long ago that this is not working. Enough already. But you're not a god. You're not THE God. We can't fathom how He thinks, nor His ways. We don't have that capacity. Quote How much suffering does your god need to see before he fixes the problem? Maybe god just don't give a dam, and actually enjoys watching all the human suffering that has been going on for such a very long time now. After all, maybe just having humans tend sheep all day is not very exciting for him. We don't know. God doesn't have to explain everything to us. He doesn't have to consult with us. Whether we agree or not, it's not as if it's a referendum. We can think of, and say whatever till we're blue in the face. He doesn't need our approval. He can do anything - including wiping us out. That's the prerogative of being the Creator! Quote Even in the animal world, I have to wonder why would god would create an animal that has to kill another animal just to survive. If god wanted to he could have set an example for man/woman and show that in the animal kingdom there is no animal killing another animal. Might sound a little crazy, but why not? You don't know the details what's between God and animals! But we do know that God has also made a covenant with them. Quote It is not we human mortals that need to explain for our actions, but god himself. If you expect that, then you don't understand too, the concept of an omnipotent God. Edited June 1, 2017 by betsy Quote
betsy Posted June 1, 2017 Author Report Posted June 1, 2017 18 hours ago, taxme said: Nice story but at this stage of my life I am not going to waste any of the time I left on earth wondering or worrying about what gods plans were for all of us. When that so-called judgement day comes he will have his hands full trying to decide as to who will go to heaven and who gets to go to hell. With billions upon billions of people who have gone onto their deaths all these years, and I am pretty sure that there will be many more to go yet, I can see one hell of a lineup of dead and still living people all waiting in line for their turn to stand before god and hear about their fate. A big task ahead for god. Maybe you will get to sit next to him, and get to judge me? Hey, you never know. I respect your opinion. Quote
betsy Posted June 1, 2017 Author Report Posted June 1, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, TTM said: These are all groups that the bible explicitly tells you to kill, despite "thou shalt not kill" Are you referring to the Old Testament? The Mosaic law? Under judges, and under kings? Those groups were considered to have committed grievous offenses against God. You cannot incorporate your political correctness with the customs and traditions of ancient times - judging them on the basis of political correctness. You can compare that with criminals in our society who are meted with punishments for their crimes. Every society have their own ways of dealing with criminals for specific crimes. You have to understand that those ancient punishments are not the same with God's designs for Christians under the apostles in the New Testament. Quote Putting to death adulterers, putting to death homosexuals, putting to death the sons who curse their parents, all these penalties belonged to a particular season in the history of God’s dealings with his covenant people, and those dealings have changed dramatically with the coming of God’s Son Jesus Christ into the world. That is the basic nature of the Bible and of redemptive history that we need to get across to our critics. We see the first pointer of how things have changed dramatically in Matthew 5:17 where Jesus says, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” So all the Old Testament finds its completion and fulfillment in Jesus — and that is a basic truth that a person needs to understand. Everything in the Old Testament was pointing toward Jesus as the Son of God incarnate, dying and rising to save his people. And, therefore, in his person, in his ministry, the whole Old Testament reaches a climax and is dramatically altered. Second pointer: The Bible spells out many of the specifics of this dramatic alteration. For example, the book of Hebrews is probably the classic place for showing how the old covenant has become obsolete with the coming of the new covenant. Hebrews 8:13 says, “In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.” And, for example, the death of Jesus is the once-for-all sacrifice for sins so that the entire Old Testament sacrificial system of offering animals comes to an end. http://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/doesn-t-the-bible-tell-christians-to-put-homosexuals-to-death The Old Testament is basically explaining the history of Christianity - most of the prophecies in the OT points to the Messiah and the changes that would come because of the Messiah. The New Testament is about the fulfillment of those prophecies in Jesus Christ. Edited June 1, 2017 by betsy Quote
TTM Posted June 1, 2017 Report Posted June 1, 2017 55 minutes ago, betsy said: Are you referring to the Old Testament? The Mosaic law? Under judges, and under kings? Sure am. The point is that saying "Thou shalt not kill" while sentencing to death 90 percent of the human population is pretty inconsistent. Quote
TTM Posted June 1, 2017 Report Posted June 1, 2017 1 hour ago, betsy said: You have to understand that those ancient punishments are not the same with God's designs for Christians under the apostles in the New Testament. So the old rules don't matter any more? Including the 10 commandments? Or are only some of the rules still in effect? How do you decide which ones? Seems pretty inconsistent and open to interpretation. Quote
taxme Posted June 1, 2017 Report Posted June 1, 2017 4 hours ago, betsy said: But you're not a god. You're not THE God. We can't fathom how He thinks, nor His ways. We don't have that capacity. We don't know. God doesn't have to explain everything to us. He doesn't have to consult with us. Whether we agree or not, it's not as if it's a referendum. We can think of, and say whatever till we're blue in the face. He doesn't need our approval. He can do anything - including wiping us out. That's the prerogative of being the Creator! You don't know the details what's between God and animals! But we do know that God has also made a covenant with them. If you expect that, then you don't understand too, the concept of an omnipotent God. You truly are a believer alright. But your belief in a god that allows the murdering of innocent women and children goes way beyond what we would expect from a loving god. What appears to be going thru his mind is that he does not seem to give a chit about what has and still is going on here on earth. Let the chaos and mayhem continue for my enjoyment. Quote
betsy Posted June 1, 2017 Author Report Posted June 1, 2017 8 minutes ago, taxme said: You truly are a believer alright. But your belief in a god that allows the murdering of innocent women and children goes way beyond what we would expect from a loving god. What appears to be going thru his mind is that he does not seem to give a chit about what has and still is going on here on earth. Let the chaos and mayhem continue for my enjoyment. You're going circular. We've discussed that already. Quote
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