TESTIMONIES

[betsy]

I'm not going to deny that I see myself as a Christian apologist, that my aim is to help spread the Word, and try to defend the faith in forums.   And I can't deny that I can be quite aggressive and bold.....that my style in discussion can be seen as "obnoxious" by some.  One of the posters here had told me that I give Christianity a bad name.  Another poster repeatedly try to sting me by rebuking my behaviour as a Christian.  But those accusations and "shaming," just bounce off me.  They don't affect me now.   There's a story to that.

 

In another forum a few years ago....a poster (another Christian, I think), had angrily told me that I am the kind who turn people off from coming to God.  That got me shakened up.  The last thing I want is to turn people off, away from God.  Because of that, I became unsure  on how to conduct myself in debates, especially when  facing an equally obnoxious atheist. 

It was eating at me.  I was in the shower (preparing to attend a workshop sponsored by Billy Graham) that I talked to God asking for guidance, and I told Him...."I'm afraid I'm turning people off."

About a couple of hours later at the workshop (I arrived early),  I spent the waiting time reading a pamphlet that was given to me.  The seats filled up around me, and I was still engrossed in reading.  Suddenly, the speaker's voice (sounding like John Goodman),  boomed in the microphone -

"ARE YOU AFRAID YOU'RE TURNING PEOPLE OFF?"

 

That was his opening statement. Startled and surprised, would be an understatement.  Boy, did he ever get my attention - and I knew "he's" talking to me.   The speaker went to a light switch and turned it off.  He called for a volunteer to come up.  Somebody did.  He asked the volunteer to turn off the light switch.  The volunteer said, "I can't.  It's already off."

The speaker said:  you can't turn off what's already off.

So I got the answer to my question.  I was buoyed.  I felt giddy because of that experience....and I got my confidence back.  However, at the end of the day I started doubting if that was just a coincidence.  I mean, yeah the speaker threw the exact question back at me - but maybe it was just a coincidence?  I asked God again.....

That night I opened my Bible and came upon a verse.  It struck me that Jesus was aggressively "debating."  It even angered some Pharisees and Sadduces. He also provided support for His arguments - quoting His source (the Old Testament).

 

Btw, on several occasions I didn't know how to respond to certain arguments, the Bible had promptly provided the responses. 

On another occasion I was being pummelled on two forums by rabid anti-Gods ( and a poster I've never heard of before suddenly came on the scene (he was an agnostic), and he came to my defense (he disappeared after that); another poster also came to my defense in the other forum) - that same day earlier, I read a passage from the Bible that says:  don't be afraid. I've got friends in the city.  I was reminded and thought of the significance of that. That may not mean anything at all to anyone, but it does mean something to me.

Edited April 1, 2017 by betsy

[BubberMiley]

The best way to spread Christ's Word is to avoid preaching the exact opposite of what he preached. This Jewish guy with the bird from the heavens sending peaceful greetings can show you The Way.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016/03/25/bird-lands-on-bernie-sanders-podium-in-portland.cnn

[hot enough]

3 hours ago, betsy said:

I read a passage from the Bible that says:  don't be afraid. I've got friends in the city.  I was reminded and thought of the significance of that. That may not mean anything at all to anyone, but it does mean something to me.

People find in the bible, everything they need for self delusion. But the bible isn't the only place that comes from. Facts, reality, science are all things that are of greater importance than personal homilies, which, while they can be comforting, they can also be highly misleading. 

You bring up Billy Graham, again, despite Billy's plumping for the deaths of untold large numbers of innocents' deaths. How would this in any way be christian?

[OftenWrong]

2 hours ago, BubberMiley said:

This Jewish guy with the bird from the heavens sending peaceful greetings can show you The Way.

Yeah but instead the Dems went with the Harlot of Babylon. I think there might be some symbolism there.

[kimmy]

6 hours ago, betsy said:

The speaker said:  you can't turn off what's already off.

I think that's a mistaken attitude.  Non-believers are not necessarily "off".  Some are "off", but some are openminded, or questioning, or lost and searching for answers. Those are the ones who you can win over. And you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.   A more interesting question would be what happened if that speaker tried to get the volunteer to turn the light back on.  How would you get that volunteer to turn the light on?  Ask him politely? Berate him? Blame him for the room being dark? Threaten him? Tell him that only stupid people or criminals like darkness? Obviously some of these approaches would work better than others.  Starting a war of words with people you're trying to win over is the worst way to approach it.

In my own experience, the Christians who make me feel positively about Christianity are ones who lead by example, not with words. I have a couple of very religious co-workers who I think follow the example of Jesus in the way they act, and they're wonderful people. If I were still openminded, it is people like them who would get me to go to church one day. It's certainly not the ones who talk loudly about their faith but don't act like they actually believe in it. People who make a big show of being religious but don't seem to have actually understood the message. People who seem to think the message of the New Testament is judgment and bigotry and disdain for everybody who isn't them.  They have pretty much the opposite effect... I don't want to join a club that has people like that as members.

There's a saying that goes something like "preach Jesus every day. If necessary, use words."

As well, people who are already "on" can be "turned off".  I once saw some research by the Barna Group about why so many young people leave the church. They found that a lot of young Christians quit because they felt they saw a lot of hypocrisy, a lot of people who called themselves Christians but didn't act like Christians. On a related note Barna's current piece on "people who love Jesus but not the church" suggests that some Christians have quit going to church because it has become politicized.

 -k

[betsy]

9 minutes ago, kimmy said:

I think that's a mistaken attitude.  Non-believers are not necessarily "off".  Some are "off", but some are openminded, or questioning, or lost and searching for answers. Those are the ones who you can win over. And you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.  

 

Those who are not off....the open-minded.....will not dump God because of a disciple's attitude.   Someone who's seeking God will not readily write Him off just because some priests and pastors have been sexually molesting children.  Rejecting God because of people who sin, or people whose attitude you don't approve of is like biting your nose to spite your face.

God will work His ways.  We don't convert people.  God does.

[betsy]

15 minutes ago, kimmy said:

A more interesting question would be what happened if that speaker tried to get the volunteer to turn the light back on.  How would you get that volunteer to turn the light on?  Ask him politely? Berate him? Blame him for the room being dark? Threaten him? Tell him that only stupid people or criminals like darkness? Obviously some of these approaches would work better than others.  Starting a war of words with people you're trying to win over is the worst way to approach it.

 

 

I think when the speaker asked the volunteer to turn the light switch off - he was just doing it to emphasize the answer:  you can't turn off what's already off.

If a person is readily willing to discard God just because of a person who did something that offended him, then he's not ready for God, to say the least.  We can even assume that it was used as an excuse to move away from God.

[betsy]

30 minutes ago, kimmy said:

In my own experience, the Christians who make me feel positively about Christianity are ones who lead by example, not with words. I have a couple of very religious co-workers who I think follow the example of Jesus in the way they act, and they're wonderful people. If I were still openminded, it is people like them who would get me to go to church one day. It's certainly not the ones who talk loudly about their faith but don't act like they actually believe in it. People who make a big show of being religious but don't seem to have actually understood the message. People who seem to think the message of the New Testament is judgment and bigotry and disdain for everybody who isn't them.  They have pretty much the opposite effect... I don't want to join a club that has people like that as members.

 

I specifically said, "in forums."   We know for a fact that rabid anti-Christians/anti-Gods have been aggressively offensive in their debates or discussions with religious people.  The forum is a different arena.  The forum is a place where we express our opinions and discuss - of course, it's a different setting!  It depends on the forum too.  Do I go to a recipe forum and start debating them about sin?

You think I talk the way I debate here in my face-to-face interaction with other people?  No way.  

 

Well, that explains it.  The Church is not a club.  People are welcome in our church, even if they are not members.  It is a place to gather that we may sing to glorify  and praise God.

 

Edited April 1, 2017 by betsy

[dialamah]

28 minutes ago, kimmy said:

In my own experience, the Christians who make me feel positively about Christianity are ones who lead by example, not with words. I have a couple of very religious co-workers who I think follow the example of Jesus in the way they act, and they're wonderful people. If I were still openminded, it is people like them who would get me to go to church one day. It's certainly not the ones who talk loudly about their faith but don't act like they actually believe in it. People who make a big show of being religious but don't seem to have actually understood the message. People who seem to think the message of the New Testament is judgment and bigotry and disdain for everybody who isn't them.  They have pretty much the opposite effect... I don't want to join a club that has people like that as members.

 

Agree with this, entirely.   Once I left my own religion, I really was harsh on Christians as a group, but I have softened as I've met some who seemed to get the 'spirit' of it, rather than strictly the message.

Betsy, just for the record your testimony in your OP here made more of an impression on me to help me understand you and your faith than any of your posts telling me why God exists, or why abortion should be illegal or why homosexuals 'choose' to be homosexuals and should just 'stop'.   

[betsy]

35 minutes ago, kimmy said:

There's a saying that goes something like "preach Jesus every day. If necessary, use words."

 

Would you believe that I'm not good in praying?  When I say "good in praying,"....I don't seem to have the ability to pray just like some of my brothers and sisters.  I get tongue-tied when I'm asked to lead the prayer.  My personal prayers are so simple. I do pray the Lord's Prayer.....other than that, I just talk to God.

 

We all have our own talents and personality....and God usually uses what talents/personality we have. If we ask for guidance,  He'll steer you where He think you should be. Not everyone can be a missionary, or a pastor.

Edited April 1, 2017 by betsy

[betsy]

42 minutes ago, kimmy said:

As well, people who are already "on" can be "turned off".  I once saw some research by the Barna Group about why so many young people leave the church. They found that a lot of young Christians quit because they felt they saw a lot of hypocrisy, a lot of people who called themselves Christians but didn't act like Christians. On a related note Barna's current piece on "people who love Jesus but not the church" suggests that some Christians have quit going to church because it has become politicized.

 -k

 

They'll never get their bulb on if the basis of their faith is tied to how people behave.

Though it may be alarming.....falling away, isn't a surprise.  Apostacy by many, has been prophesied. 

Hypocrisy has been a problem, even during Jesus' time.  Jesus wants us to mind our own business for a special reason.  Perhaps, it's best to just focus on God.

Edited April 1, 2017 by betsy

[hot enough]

1 hour ago, betsy said:

Well, that explains it.  The Church is not a club.  People are welcome in our church, even if they are not members.  It is a place to gather that we may sing to glorify  and praise God.

Are they welcome if they point out that there is no god, that it is a fraud like scientology or any of the other ologies? 

[betsy]

3 hours ago, hot enough said:

Are they welcome if they point out that there is no god, that it is a fraud like scientology or any of the other ologies? 

 

Would you be obnoxious...........

.......  and repay someone's hospitality with unkind insensitivity, and downright cruelty?    That cruel desire can only come from Satan.

 

Break free, hot enough.  Come to Christ.

Edited April 2, 2017 by betsy

[hot enough]

5 minutes ago, betsy said:

Would you be that kind who'd be obnoxious,  and repay someone's hospitality with indifference and cruelty?    Satan would want you to do that.

'they' isn't the correct pronoun reference for me, Betsy.

Are you then saying then that folks are only welcome if they sing to glorify  and praise God ? Questions are not to be asked of adult church members? 

[betsy]

Just now, hot enough said:

'they' isn't the correct pronoun reference for me, Betsy.

Are you then saying then that folks are only welcome if they sing to glorify  and praise God ? Questions are not to be asked of adult church members? 

 

Pastors usually welcome people who want to talk privately.  I'm sure questions will be welcomed.