Why all the worldwide turmoil? (9/11 thread)

[?Impact]

6 minutes ago, dre said:

I dont think thermal energy is at question here.

Not to do with the failure that caused the collapse, nor with the molten metal seen pouring out a few minutes prior to collapse, but it might be relevant to the rubble pile and what was found (or thought to be found) in it.

[hot enough]

7 minutes ago, dre said:

I dont think thermal energy is at question here.

. and the buildings were already poorly engineered and under-built 

I think that Impact wants to make a case to explain the molten/vaporized steel found in the piles. My guess - lots of thermal energy buried, stewing for some time , presto, vaporized steel .

Dr. Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl is a professor of civil and environmental engineering at the University of California, Berkeley. He specializes in studying structural damage done by earthquakes and terrorist bombings. [CHRONICLE OF HIGHER EDUCATION, 12/7/2001; CBS 

Astaneh-Asl will describe the WTC as “the best-designed building I have ever seen.” [SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE, 10/22/2001]

 

[hot enough]

6 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

Not to do with the failure that caused the collapse, nor with the molten metal seen pouring out a few minutes prior to collapse, but it might be relevant to the rubble pile and what was found (or thought to be found) in it.

PING PONG, I was right!

"molten STEEL/IRON seen pouring out ... "

[dre]

4 minutes ago, hot enough said:

I think that Impact wants to make a case to explain the molten/vaporized steel found in the piles. My guess - lots of thermal energy buried, stewing for some time , presto, vaporized steel .

Dr. Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl is a professor of civil and environmental engineering at the University of California, Berkeley. He specializes in studying structural damage done by earthquakes and terrorist bombings. [CHRONICLE OF HIGHER EDUCATION, 12/7/2001; CBS 

Astaneh-Asl will describe the WTC as “the best-designed building I have ever seen.” [SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE, 10/22/2001]

 

Right back at you...

Quote

BERKELEY — The civil-engineering industry’s failure to admit that cost-saving design features led to the World Trade Center collapse amounts to “moral corruption,” a UC Berkeley engineering professor said Tuesday.

Quote

 

Astaneh’s presentation included computerized animations of planes hitting the towers. Using $270,000 software, each sequence showed a plane hitting first a realistic version of a tower and then the plane hitting a reinforced building.

With thicker beams, the animation showed the planes disintegrating almost immediately after hitting the tower. In contrast, the airliners punched through the unreinforced exterior with little resistance.

“Like a knife cutting through soft butter,” Astaneh said. “Airplanes are not very strong, but this building was even weaker than an airplane.”

New York building codes would have prevented the towers’ flimsy design, he said, but federal laws allowed engineers to ignore those codes. The same exception has been granted to developers of New York’s Freedom Tower, which will replace the World Trade Center.

 

 

[dre]

5 minutes ago, hot enough said:

PING PONG, I was right!

"molten STEEL/IRON seen pouring out ... "

That was probably aluminum not steel. The airliner was made of hundreds of tons of aluminum that that has a melting point of 630.3 degrees.

[?Impact]

1 minute ago, hot enough said:

PING PONG, I was right!

"molten STEEL/IRON seen pouring out ... "

Close. I am not trying to 'make a case', just understand if alternative explanations are possible.

As you noticed I didn't say STEEL/IRON pouring out because the video certainly appears that is not the case. You will notice that as the molten metal drops further down and cools, it does not appear to cool to a black colour as iron would. The best explanation for the molten metal we see pouring out a few minutes before the collapse is the 7000 series aluminum alloy used in aircraft. Note 7000 series aluminum alloy has zinc as its main secondary element - zinc will improve the strength but lower the melting point a 100 degrees or more below the 660.3°C of pure aluminum.  I am open to other explanations, but I have yet to hear any that have better credibility.

 

[hot enough]

8 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

Close. I am not trying to 'make a case', just understand if alternative explanations are possible.

As you noticed I didn't say STEEL/IRON pouring out because the video certainly appears that is not the case. You will notice that as the molten metal drops further down and cools, it does not appear to cool to a black colour as iron would. The best explanation for the molten metal we see pouring out a few minutes before the collapse is the 7000 series aluminum alloy used in aircraft. Note 7000 series aluminum alloy has zinc as its main secondary element - zinc will improve the strength but lower the melting point a 100 degrees or more below the 660.3°C of pure aluminum.  I am open to other explanations, but I have yet to hear any that have better credibility.

 

Doesn't molten aluminum appear silvery in daylight conditions?

[?Impact]

Just now, hot enough said:

Doesn't molten aluminum appear silvery in daylight conditions?

I thought you were already aware of the answer to that one. Yes, when aluminum melts at 660.3°C it will appear silvery. When it is hotter however it will go through a range of colours, just like many other metals. It is not hard to imaging that the pool of aluminum that formed in the sagging floor with the heat from the fire could easily be several hundred or more degrees hotter than that. As it poured out of this pool and down through the air it cooled, and went from the red/orange colour back to a silver colour as we see in the video. I doubt it had time enough to solidify before hitting the ground, but if it did it would remain that silver colour until it had the chance to oxidize and take on a duller silver. The specific alloy that was present in the largest volume also had a lower melting point, and probably lower temperature ranges for its colour transformations. Besides the zinc in the allow, one has to wonder what other materials accumulated in that pool that would have an effect on the colour.

 

[hot enough]

18 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

It is not hard to imaging that the pool of aluminum that formed in the sagging floor with the heat from the fire could easily be several hundred or more degrees hotter than that.

Yes, it is very hard to imagine that. What would cause the sagging floor? 

[?Impact]

12 minutes ago, hot enough said:

Yes, it is very hard to imagine that. What would cause the sagging floor? 

Oh, I don't know. A plane crashing into the building, high temperatures causing beams below to soften. No I have no idea what could cause the floor to sag.

b.t.w. you don't need a sagging floor to hold a molten material although that is one of the most likely causes. As the material flows further from the source of heat it will build its own dam, and then there might be natural dams near the walls. Once those dams break, or the floor itself sags or breaks, that is the most likely cause of the start of the flow visible outside. No, we don't have all the answers because we don't have any video evidence from that part of the building.

[hot enough]

23 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

Oh, I don't know. A plane crashing into the building, high temperatures causing beams below to soften. No I have no idea what could cause the floor to sag.

 

What high temperatures? I know that if you just keep repeating the official conspiracy theory, which you must admit is all theory, describing a crazy conspiracy then we can't do the science. 

The Fires' Severity

How Intense and Extensive Were the Twin Towers' Fires?

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/fires/severity.html

[betsy]

4 hours ago, hot enough said:

Precisely, too long, and you don't seem to know how to edit or choose material appropriate to the discussion at hand. I would still be interested in the section of PMs that relates to the initial points, and then the sources that discussed the molten metals. 

Excuses. Excuses. Excuses. 

 

 

Quote

The structural engineering community rejects the controlled-demolition conspiracy theory.

Its consensus is that the collapse of the World Trade Center buildings was a fire-induced, gravity-driven collapse, an explanation that does not involve the use of explosives.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Center_controlled_demolition_conspiracy_theories

 

 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2017 by betsy

[Guest]

Quote

 

I don't really.  It's just something I do in passing, while I have nothing better to do.  This is your passion, not mine.

You see, if any of what you say were true, it would be a bigger story than the 9/11 attacks themselves.  Bigger even than the Best Picture mess at the Oscars.

The idea that there would not be a single media outlet able to report on it is laughable.  They can't all be under the US Government/Bilderberg thumb.  When Al Jazeera, or The Moscow Times, or the Papua New Guinea National report on this stuff, I'll lend it some credence.

And then, just to really piss off all the conspiracy theorists, I'll feel no guilt whatsoever at not believing it for all these years.  In fact, I might even claim I knew it all along.

 

 

This was kind of a threadkiller when I posted it in the other thread, but I am curious as to why not one news organization reports on this stuff, if the evidence is so clear.

Edited March 3, 2017 by bcsapper

[hot enough]

27 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

 

This was kind of a threadkiller when I posted it in the other thread, but I am curious as to why not one news organization reports on this stuff, if the evidence is so clear.

News organizations on day one, were talking all about the explosions, the controlled demolition, the this can't just be because of the planes. Day two, and that was all over and the official conspiracy theory took over.  

Focus on the important things, the science. The molten metals tell the story. Look at these pictures, you don't even have to read anything. Jet fuel and office furnishings are 3,000F short of being able to do this. 

https://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_apc.pdf

WTC7 fell at free fall speed. Impossible without a controlled demolition. 

Watch this about 6 minutes long, video, lots of people talking about the explosions, including media.

WTC 7 - An Epic Fairy Tale

 

Edited March 3, 2017 by hot enough

[?Impact]

2 minutes ago, hot enough said:

Focus on the important things, the science. The molten metals tell the story. Look at these pictures, you don't even have to read anything. Jet fuel and office furnishings are 3,000F short of being able to do this. 

You have referenced that FEMA document many times, but haven't even read how it concludes: The rate of corrosion is also unknown. It is possible that this is the result of long-term heating in the ground following the collapse of the buildings. It is also possible that the phenomenon started prior to collapse and accelerated the weakening of the steel structure. A detailed study into the mechanisms of this phenomenon is needed to determine what risk, if any, is presented to existing steel structures exposed to severe and long-burning fires. 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, hot enough said:

News organizations on day one, were talking all about the explosions, the controlled demolition, the this can't just be because of the planes. Day two, and that was all over and the official conspiracy theory took over.  

 

 

But why?  They can't all be being leaned on by the NSA.

And why bother bringing down the smaller building if the plan was to mask the planned destruction of the two main buildings with aeroplane impacts?  Why even prepare it?

[hot enough]

4 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

You have referenced that FEMA document many times, but haven't even read how it concludes: The rate of corrosion is also unknown. It is possible that this is the result of long-term heating in the ground following the collapse of the buildings. It is also possible that the phenomenon started prior to collapse and accelerated the weakening of the steel structure. A detailed study into the mechanisms of this phenomenon is needed to determine what risk, if any, is presented to existing steel structures exposed to severe and long-burning fires. 

You are so last century, Impact. Get up to date, will ya? There were lots of reasons advanced by the propagandist press and US official conspiracy shills for the intergranular melting.

There was no legal reason for anything at WTC that could melt steel, let alone vaporize it. NIST was encouraged by many people to do studies. They never did because they knew where they would lead. Everything about the NIST study was the very antithesis of science. 

There are a lot of facts to be known in order to be a professional anything — lawyer, doctor, engineer, accountant, teacher. But with science there is one important difference. The facts serve mainly to access the ignorance… Scientists don’t concentrate on what they know, which is considerable but minuscule, but rather on what they don’t know…. Science traffics in ignorance, cultivates it, and is driven by it. Mucking about in the unknown is an adventure; doing it for a living is something most scientists consider a privilege.

[…]

Working scientists don’t get bogged down in the factual swamp because they don’t care all that much for facts. It’s not that they discount or ignore them, but rather that they don’t see them as an end in themselves. They don’t stop at the facts; they begin there, right beyond the facts, where the facts run out. Facts are selected, by a process that is a kind of controlled neglect, for the questions they create, for the ignorance they point to.

https://www.brainpickings.org/2012/04/02/stuart-firestein-ignorance-science/

 

[hot enough]

5 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

But why?  They can't all be being leaned on by the NSA.

And why bother bringing down the smaller building if the plan was to mask the planned destruction of the two main buildings with aeroplane impacts?  Why even prepare it?

Focus on the science. Science doesn't lie. What part of jet fuel/office furnishings are 3,000F short of vaporizing steel do you not understand? What would lead you to just wonder about that? Would it help to see NIST's number two scientist lying about molten metal, [actually all of NIST, denied the explosions too; did you watch the video?], stating that he was in the boneyards and he didn't see anything when there are pictures of him touching the end of a previously molten, vaporized steel beam?

[hot enough]

11 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

And why bother bringing down the smaller building if the plan was to mask the planned destruction of the two main buildings with aeroplane impacts?  Why even prepare it?

I don't have any phuckin' idea. But we could speculate on that for forever. The point is, it was brought down by explosives because it fell at free fall speed for the first 2.5 seconds, 105 feet, 8 floors. And NIST admitted that free fall had occurred.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, hot enough said:

Focus on the science. Science doesn't lie. What part of jet fuel/office furnishings are 3,000F short of vaporizing steel do you not understand? What would lead you to just wonder about that? Would it help to see NIST's number two scientist lying about molten metal, [actually all of NIST, denied the explosions too; did you watch the video?], stating that he was in the boneyards and he didn't see anything when there are pictures of him touching the end of a previously molten, vaporized steel beam?

Like I said in my post up there, this is not a passion of mine.  If it was, and I were to focus on the science, I would be looking for ways to refute your position, as that is my default.

Given that, I'm more likely to focus on the less esoteric questions, like mine there about the media, and like the one about the number of people required to know and keep quiet about this.  It seems very unlikely to me that none of them have spilled the beans by now.

 

 

Edited March 3, 2017 by bcsapper

[hot enough]

6 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

and like the one about the number of people required to know and keep quiet about this.  It seems very unlikely to me that none of them have spilled the beans by now.

No one spilled the beans about the Gulf of Tonkin lie until 20 or 30 years after and 3 million Vietnamese died, a million Cambodians, who knows how many Laotians. Consider how many knew about that lie?

There are many other huge lies that have been covered up by what is a propagandist media, no different than that of Nazi Germany. 

[hot enough]

10 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Like I said in my post up there, this is not a passion of mine.  If it was, and I were to focus on the science, I would be looking for ways to refute your position, as that is my default.

Forgive me but that doesn't say very nice things about you. You refuse to hear or think about impossible events that are the foundation of this gigantic cover up because your default is to believe something you know is a lie. 

[Guest]

Just now, hot enough said:

Forgive me but that doesn't say very nice things about you. You refuse to hear or think about impossible events that are the foundation of this gigantic cover up because your default is to believe something you know is a lie. 

No, that wouldn't be my default.  That's about as likely as yours being to believe something fantastic in order to feed some perplexing, unexplained need.

Actually it's less likely.

[hot enough]

13 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

No, that wouldn't be my default.  That's about as likely as yours being to believe something fantastic in order to feed some perplexing, unexplained need.

Actually it's less likely.

What is fantastic about falsely accusing people and then using those lies to whip unthinking individuals into supporting two major illegal invasions and a host of smaller ones?

 

Edited March 3, 2017 by hot enough

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, hot enough said:

What is fantastic about falsely accusing people and then using those lies to whip unthinking individuals into supporting two major illegal invasions and a host of smaller ones?

 

That is.