Should Canada give up on its failing Forces....

[Montgomery Burns]

USA protects USA. That's all there is to it.

Of course. That is what the voters vote them in for - not to ask France's permission before you do anything with your foreign policy decisions.

But deep down inside, Canada knows that if it was attacked (and Osama has said that Canada is #5 on his hitlist), the US would militarily (help) the attacked Canada. Vancouver is on the border, so it would be in the USA's best interest to aid Canada.

Remember the hit the American economy took after 9-11? Just think if that had happened in Toronto.

we really HAVE NO ENEMY COUNTRIES.

But that can change quickly. Although there are more democratic countries these days - there are still lots of dictator types ruling. Thugs like that respect only one thing:

Power, especially militarily.

I haven't read all the posts on this thread, but I doubt that anyone is suggesting a "US type" military build-up. Just an increase to make the military more capable to defend itself.

Australia has only 65% of Canada's population, but they have a stronger military than Canada. Of course they, like Canada have a large border to defend.

It's kinda embarrassing when Martin gives a speech at the UN and only half of the other countries show up to listen to him. That tells you something about Canada's perceived importance in world affairs. Diplomatic power isn't as respected as much when it cannot be backed up militarily.

[Fortunata]

It's kinda embarrassing when Martin gives a speech at the UN and only half of the other countries show up to listen to him. That tells you something about Canada's perceived importance in world affairs. Diplomatic power isn't as respected as much when it cannot be backed up militarily.

It shouldn't be embarrassing at all. We are not a major power. And like you said, do many Canadians really want us to be?

Do you know how full the seats are when Norway talks? They play a major role in peace/negotiations in the world (much like I would like for Canada). Or the Netherlands? Belgium?

My point is that I'll bet we have as large an audience as some other middle powers. We don't pack 'em in like the USA but who else does?

[Army Guy]

The reason i asked this question is this "everyone i've talked to outside the military realm has got a very lengthy list for DND to do...however these are the same people who do not support a tax increase"niether do i " but are also not willing to cut any other existing programs.

It is very frustrating to most soldiers to hear that most of the country supports us and the work we do...upto a piont...they will not support a major increase in our budget....

Do you think our present Gov't is living upto it's present responsiability's in providing enough internal and external defense need's....

And where would defense needs place on your list of priorties...today knowing DND's current condition.

[Army Guy]

Fortunata:

Army Guy - what do you think of the proposed changes to the armed forces? Air force and Navy under and supporting the army and all new equipment geared towards that? In practical terms what does that mean for our waters and our airspace protections?

I think that with the present budget it is perhaps the "only" direction available...one has to remember that 12 bil sounds like alot, but not all that is DND's to spend...only approx 8 bil and out of that and DND pays for every deployment the gov't sends us on....at the end of the day there is only peanuts left...not enough for equipment purchases that are very much needed.

Do i agree with the changes "NO" i firmly believe our Gov't has let us all down....

It means that Canada will get the amount of protection it pays for....for it's peace keeping forces only....it should be noted that this new equipment is not available in any numbers that would be needed to protect or provide any defense within Canada....

[Montgomery Burns]

Fortunata:

It shouldn't be embarrassing at all. We are not a major power. And like you said, do many Canadians really want us to be?

Of course it is embarrassing when the leader of Canada, and indeed, its citizens seem to think Canada is a major player in the world.

And I never said "do many Canadians want us to be."

[Fortunata]

but I doubt that anyone is suggesting a "US type" military build-up.

M. Burns, I took this as meaning not a superpower or a major player US style. If you meant different, so be it. What I said holds true regardless.

And Canadians don't think we are major players. I don't know who you are talking to but they obviously are deluded, or maybe they are in that CPC mode where anything Canada does or is is bad, not good enough, and, in plain words, just plain old don't come up to snuff compared to USA (as if any other country does).

Well, if you want to be a major player, go south. Many, many Canadians (if you read FD) won't be happy unless they do. Instead of looking at what we are, they just look at what we aren't. Glass half empty syndrome.

But you are right about diplomatic power not being as great for those who cannot exert military power to some degree to back it up with. That's why we need a bigger, better, stronger military. I'd rather put our surplus towards that and not introduce tax cuts until we get even some of what we need.

[Montgomery Burns]

And Canadians don't think we are major players. I don't know who you are talking to but they obviously are deluded, or maybe they are in that CPC mode where anything Canada does or is is bad, not good enough, and, in plain words, just plain old don't come up to snuff compared to USA (as if any other country does).

Well, if you want to be a major player, go south. Many, many Canadians (if you read FD) won't be happy unless they do. Instead of looking at what we are, they just look at what we aren't. Glass half empty syndrome.

Er yes, Canadians do they think they are major players in the world. How else to explain all the whining that goes on when the US does something and doesn't ask Canada's permission. You see it on the CBC all the time. You hear the CLP or the NDP ominously worrying that certain policies would "Americanize" Canada.

Oh the horror!

Canadians think that they are major players in the world and their entire self-identity is based on the fact that they are not Americans; they are "enlightened."

Well, you can have all the "enlightened" American liberals that are running away from their country because they didn't get what they wanted; a leftist government.

This just might be the first time more Americans have moved to Canada than vice-versa, at least since all those draft-dodging American hippies that moved to Canada during the Vietnam War.

Congratulations Canada.

[Black Dog]

Canadians think that they are major players in the world and their entire self-identity is based on the fact that they are not Americans; they are "enlightened."

Only an American or American wannabe would see the Canadian tendency to define ourselves based on our differences with our bellicose neighbour as a negative. The rest of us don't really care. Nor do I think most Canadians care much about Canada's place in the world or how we are viewed by the rest of the planet. That seems to be an American obsession. You certainly don't see Canadian headlines blaring "Why do they hate us?"

[Fortunata]

Er yes, Canadians do they think they are major players in the world.  How else to explain all the whining that goes on when the US does something and doesn't ask Canada's permission.  You see it on the CBC all the time.  You hear the CLP or the NDP ominously worrying that certain policies would "Americanize" Canada.

Oh the horror!

Canadians think that they are major players in the world and their entire self-identity is based on the fact that they are not Americans; they are "enlightened."

Well, you can have all the "enlightened" American liberals that are running away from their country because they didn't get what they wanted; a leftist government.

This just might be the first time more Americans have moved to Canada than vice-versa, at least since all those draft-dodging American hippies that moved to Canada during the Vietnam War.

Congratulations Canada. 

What a sourpuss you are. You DO belong on FD.

Canadians DON'T think we are major players. Canadians DON'T whine when USA does something without asking our permission if it doesn't affect us, NOT like the war in Iraq, which affects the whole world AND us specifically given our location which is RIGHT NEXT TO THEM. And I have a feeling you are one of those that hates CBC so much you couldn't see past what you actually what to see; therefore, all things from CBC are anti-American. And as much as people like you and some of the daft media always say Canadians identify them selves as being not American... funny I don't know ANY that actually do that. But nice way to put a whole nationality down.

You see, some Canadians can't allow themselves to see much positive about their own country. That's why they created a little, small minded forum called Free Dominion. They want people like you. They will like you there.

Oh, and... the thing about the Democrats was a JOKE. Guess you didn't want to see that either.

[Black Dog]

Fortunata...shhhh.

Don't mention the FD word: they might hear you and come here.

[Fortunata]

Ooooops, sorry Black Dog, but I think the gate has already been sprung . I won't again tho

[Guest eureka]

Canadians quite rightly do, in part, identify themselves as being "not American."

Canada was born as an opposition to America. It was born to be a "Peaceable Kingdom" and a democracy, not an oligarchy, as democracy was understood at the time. It was born possessing all the British Freedoms" including those which the US Constitution took away from its citizens - and slaves: Freedom of Speech was one that we began with and the Americans are still struggling to attain.

[Grantler]

As for us giving up on our failing forces, no, I do not think that we should do it.

The reasoning is not that we should pay the Americans to defend us, because really, they already do.

Canada has some of the most elite forces in the world in my opinion. It has seemed that our small military has spawned a level of success in the fieild in recent years.

As a friend of mine in the US Rangers told me, the JTF2 squad he saw in action was the best and most disciplined command of troops he has ever witnessed in action.

We need to keep that availible to the world in order to maintain peace and stability in nations of need.

The United States already defends us within the NATO agreement so our forces can be used elsewhere.

[Army Guy]

As for us giving up on our failing forces, no, I do not think that we should do it.

Most military members, already think that the Canadian public has given up on them and there is no relief coming.... Actions speak louder than words and the public has yet said "enough fix this"....

The reasoning is not that we should pay the Americans to defend us, because really, they already do.

The US has said it will assist Canada if attacked, and to most countries this is enough of a threat....that being said they don't patrol our waters,airspace,or land mass the Canadian Armed Forces does all that....be it on a very limited basis.

Canada has some of the most elite forces in the world in my opinion. It has seemed that our small military has spawned a level of success in the field in recent years.

Canada's Defense Dept has always spawn success in the field through out it's entire history...

We need to keep that availible to the world in order to maintain peace and stability in nations of need.

I not sure what exactly you meant by this but Peacekeeping is not a prime mission for the CF...Defending Canada and her interest here or abroad is our prime mission....to do that you must have an army capable of both defensive and offensive operations....

[Newfie Canadian]

Well, some news on funding the Forces.

Boeing gets $117 Million contract to upgrade CF-18s

Payraise for the Forces, Hopefully

[caesar]

The reasoning is not that we should pay the Americans to defend us, because really, they already do.

We are not defended by the USA; we may need to defend ourselves from the USA. We do belong to Nato and the UN which is supposed to afford us extra protection. Canada does send our forces around the world; generally for peacekeeping purposes. Why should we not expect those we halp to help us in a time of crisis.

The military and disaster responses teams and the coast guard should be united as one larger unit. I would rather see a smaller well trained military that is capable of assisting in times of natural disaster and/or military attack. Those who patrol our shores should be capable and available for helping in rescues on the sea or shoreline as well as patrol for illegal entries or activities.

We don't need a large untrained military such as the USA which has too many "friendly fire" incidents.

[Chloe]

Canadians quite rightly do, in part, identify themselves as being "not American."

Canada was born as an opposition to America. It was born to be a "Peaceable Kingdom" and a democracy, not an oligarchy, as democracy was understood at the time. It was born possessing all the British Freedoms" including those which the US Constitution took away from its citizens - and slaves: Freedom of Speech was one that we began with and the Americans are still struggling to attain.

I'm sorry Eureka, but I find your claims to be quite laughable, though Canadians may identify themselves in part as not American, its funny to see how we still need the word American in trying to define ourselves.

Why is it that for such an independent country as Canada as you so well imply, we as Canadians are so interested in everything American, granted that the US elections was important world wide, we didn't stop there like many of our other independent nations did. We still care about ther Superbowl and their entertainment industry, amongst other things. Why is that kids know more American history than they visit Candian Cities.

You say Americans are still struggling to attain Freedom of Speech, I think we're still trying to attain the ability to vote how we want. When you look at Martin telling his cabinet members to vote the way he wants... but at the same time claim the gay legislation is a free vote one.

On a world scale view, we may be seen as the "peacable"

country but a very intimidated one. The one that goes with the flow. In other words we are the quite America, but don't mistake quiet for timidity.

I see Canada as a nation full of hypocrates, but if I had to choose between a country full of suicidal maniacs or hypocrates i guess Canada all the WAY!!

[Chloe]

I should also add that in a way we could compare the US and Canada relations to the Canada and Quebec relations when Quebec was busy wanting to separate.

We are like Quebec when it comes to US relations because like Quebec we want to be independent of a bigger entity but still enjoy the benefits of being associated with them, but at the same time mock them. The only difference is we don't need American passports or currency, we were smart enough to get that on our own.

[Grantler]

I find it interesting that the CF is primarily made up of Quebecors. Maybe we need the English-Canadian Forces incase QUebec separates and then attempts to take us over.

[Guest eureka]

I am pleased to be able to amuse you, Chloe. However, what I said is reality. We can discuss it if you want. What is it you don't agree with since your post did not live up to the introductory denial.

[Newfie Canadian]

What an interesting and bizarre little twist this thread has taken.

Getting back to the topic, sort of.

Hopefully Gen. Hillier will be able to do what those before him (Heanult, Baril, Murray, Boyle, de Chastelain, Anderson) have been unable to do: shame the Liberal government into spending money on the Forces.

I thought he did pretty good in his assuming command speech.

[caesar]

We are like Quebec when it comes to US relations because like Quebec we want to be independent of a bigger entity but still enjoy the benefits of being associated with them

That is a false comparison. We are not nor ever have been a part of the USA. Of course, everyone wants to protect the benefits associated with being a neighbouring country. That does work two ways. The USA does have the moolah but we have the resources. China is now the worlds largest consumer. hehe The USA may get nervous.

[Chloe]

Like someone previously said, we already have the US defending us in a way. The thing is we have never really been under any extreme and direct threat but should the day come, I'm pretty sure the US would come out to defend, if for no other reason than to look good to the world community and say, "Hey we're not so bad after all."

If we do go ahead with allowing the US to defend Canada, it will further amplify the fact that the US is in deed, Canda's babysitter. It will also show how pathetic a nation we are that we can't even develop a modest military made up of CANADIANS to defend CANADIANS.

[Army Guy]

Grantler:

I find it interesting that the CF is primarily made up of Quebecors. Maybe we need the English-Canadian Forces incase QUebec separates and then attempts to take us over.

Most of the personal within DND are from Ontario...then the martimes, then Western canada , then Quebec...it's broken down this way due to actual numbers of population....sorry.

[caesar]

I'm sorry Eureka, but I find your claims to be quite laughable, though Canadians may identify themselves in part as not American, its funny to see how we still need the word American in trying to define ourselves.

The word "American" is actually the joke; Canada and Mexico as ell as all South American nations are just as entitled to call themselves Americans as citizens of the USA do. Maybe we should start calling them the UNIS or something if it bothers you so much that we do share this continent and South Americans share the American title.