Demonization - a how to manual

[betsy]

9 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Really?  So, as a Christian, you are a 'quiet accomplice' in the crimes of Warren Jeffs?    How about the priests and ministers who sexually assaulted children?  They're all Christians, so surely you are a 'quiet accomplice'.

No?  So why can you to reject what (some) other Christians do, but not accept that other people may do the same within their faith group?

 

 

You're missing the point though.  Your comparison is wrong.

 

Not only Warren Jeff....but so many others who commit crimes like murder, or thievery, or adultery.

What does Christianity say about polygamy? murder, thievery and adultery?

 

Does,  "marriage is a union between a man and a woman,"  rings a bell?

 

We can't stop anyone from calling or identifying themselves as Christians.  But what we do know is that those who do those crimes are not following the teachings of Christ. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2017 by betsy

[?Impact]

1 hour ago, betsy said:

We can't stop anyone from calling or identifying themselves as Christians.  But what we do know is that those who do those crimes are not following the teachings of Christ. 

Certainly the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) self identify as Christians, and polygamy was for a time a controversial part of their religion. We should also not forget Matthew 25:1-10

Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

[dialamah]

3 hours ago, betsy said:

What does Christianity say about polygamy? 

We can't stop anyone from calling or identifying themselves as Christians.  But what we do know is that those who do those crimes are not following the teachings of Christ. 

Polygamy has a long amd honored history in the Bible and nowhere is it forbidden in the New Testament.  As a matter of fact, in Matthew 19, Jesus referred to the Old Testament laws around marriage, including the one instructing that if a woman was widowed, she should be given to her husband's brother as wife - regardless of that brother's marital status.

Clearly, polygamy is a valid Christian belief and practice. 

 

Edited January 15, 2017 by dialamah

[betsy]

2 hours ago, ?Impact said:

Certainly the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) self identify as Christians, and polygamy was for a time a controversial part of their religion. We should also not forget Matthew 25:1-10

Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

 

Well, you better read - and understand - what you're responding to.

[Guest]

There's nothing wrong with polygamy, as long as everyone involved is fully consenting. 

[betsy]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

Polygamy has a long amd honored history in the Bible and nowhere is it forbidden in the New Testament. 

WRONG!

All the way from the very first Book (Genesis) when God made Adam and Eve, God has explained that marriage is a union between a man and a woman!

 

Genesis 2

²² Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib^[h] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

²³ The man said,

“This is now bone of my bones
    and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
    for she was taken out of man.”

²⁴ That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

As a matter of fact, in Matthew 19, Jesus referred to the Old Testament laws around marriage, including the one instructing that if a woman was widowed, she should be given to her husband's brother as wife - regardless of that brother's marital status.

Clearly, polygamy is a valid Christian belief and practice. 

 

 

Matthew 19 talks about divorce!

 

Matthew 19

³ Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

⁴ “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’^{[a] 5} and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’^[b]? ⁶ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

⁷ “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

⁸ Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.

⁹ I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

 

 

Jesus had set the record straight!   He expanded on what constitutes adultery, too!

 

Matthew 5

²⁷ “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’^{[e] 28} But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Edited January 15, 2017 by betsy

[betsy]

54 minutes ago, dialamah said:

 As a matter of fact, in Matthew 19, Jesus referred to the Old Testament laws around marriage, including the one instructing that if a woman was widowed, she should be given to her husband's brother as wife - regardless of that brother's marital status.

Clearly, polygamy is a valid Christian belief and practice. 

 

You're must be referring to Matthew 22.  The Sadduces were trying to make Jesus stumble with tricky questions:

 

Matthew 22

²³ That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. ²⁴ “Teacher,” they said, “Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for him. ²⁵ Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. ²⁶ The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. ²⁷ Finally, the woman died. ²⁸ Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”

²⁹ Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. ³⁰ At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

 

 

[betsy]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

 

Clearly, polygamy is a valid Christian belief and practice. 

 

 

It was allowed in the Old Testament, but we don't really know why God had allowed it.  There is a good explanation from this article:

 

Quote

the Bible presents monogamy as the plan which conforms most closely to God’s ideal for marriage. The Bible says that God’s original intention was for one man to be married to only one woman: “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife [not wives], and they will become one flesh [not fleshes]” (Genesis 2:24). While Genesis 2:24 is describing what marriage is, rather than how many people are involved, the consistent use of the singular should be noted. In Deuteronomy 17:14-20, God says that the kings were not supposed to multiply wives (or horses or gold). While this cannot be interpreted as a command that the kings must be monogamous, it can be understood as declaring that having multiple wives causes problems. This can be clearly seen in the life of Solomon (1 Kings 11:3-4).

https://www.gotquestions.org/polygamy.html

 

Think about it.  If Jesus had explained,  But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.........then clearly, adding a second wife is an act of adultery. 
 

Just to remind you that we're going to derail your topic if you're going to continue along this line.....

 

Anyway, your mention of Jeff Warren, or any other Christians who committed crimes is not only irrelevant, but also wrong, since you're trying compare apples with dung (with your comparison of Christian teachings to Satanic teachings/rituals). 

  You're comparing good with evil - and making them seem the same!

Edited January 15, 2017 by betsy

[drummindiver]

As an atheist,  I'm not surprised that Satanism was your go to goat  With all the killin in the name of all y'all other gods and beliefs,  if I had to choose it'd be the left hand path.

Tge Satanic Temple seven tenets, quoted below:^[15]

1. "One should strive to act with compassion and empathy towards all creatures in accordance with reason."
2. "The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions."
3. "One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone."
4. "The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo your own."
5. "Beliefs should conform to our best scientific understanding of the world. We should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit our beliefs."
6. "People are fallible. If we make a mistake, we should do our best to rectify it and resolve any harm that may have been caused."
7. "Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word."

[betsy]

19 hours ago, dialamah said:

I have said that some people on this forum are demonizing Muslims, and in response to Argus' question to me (below), thought I'd open a discussion on it.   

If every single Satanist practiced ritual sacrifice and child rape, and no other group ever did - then they'd be hard to demonize around that, wouldn't they?   Being the one and only practitioners of such atrocities at virtually 100% participation would mean the claims of this group being and supporting evil would be true.

But if ritual sacrifice and child rape were practiced by many other groups, and if not every single Satanist followed that practice, and many were against it, then claiming that every Satanist was guilty of these two practices, while simultaneously making the claim that nobody (or almost nobody) else was - well, those claims wouldn't be true.   And, in the context of creating ill-will, discrimination and proposing/supporting laws to target Satanists based on the misinformation that they, and only they, carried out human sacrifice/child rape would be demonizing them.  

 

 

Demonization is now a common practice.  It doesn't have to be demonization of a group.  Look how they demonized Harper before he became PM.  Look how they're demonizing Trump.  Big oil.  Big Corporation and Capitalism.

 

 

[dialamah]

3 hours ago, betsy said:

 

Demonization is now a common practice.  It doesn't have to be demonization of a group.  Look how they demonized Harper before he became PM.  Look how they're demonizing Trump.  Big oil.  Big Corporation and Capitalism.

Partisan bullshit is not the same as demonisation.   Harper and Trump have been no more demonized than have Trudeau and Clinton.  

[Argus]

20 hours ago, bcsapper said:

No, I don't think that's it.

I do think there are those who understand the concerns, but are reluctant to give full expression to them due to other concerns they have.  Concerns I don't have, because I don't believe in tarring entire groups of people wth the same brush.

Not all members of the Hells Angels are bad people, right?

[Guest]

Just now, Argus said:

Not all members of the Hells Angels are bad people, right?

Neither are all Norwegians. 

[Argus]

19 hours ago, ?Impact said:

Certainly the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) self identify as Christians, and polygamy was for a time a controversial part of their religion. : and the door was shut.

It is STILL a part of Islam and that doesn't seem to bother anyone.

[dialamah]

3 minutes ago, Argus said:

It is STILL a part of Islam and that doesn't seem to bother anyone.

So what?  There's an entire subculture of polyamorists in Canada who aren't religious at all, they just don't believe monogamy is necessary.  A lot of them would probably marry if it wasn't illegal.   

I think the problem isn't polygamy (multiple spouses) per se, but that virtually every religion is patriarchal, and patriarchy allows polygyny (one man, several wives) but disallows polyandry (one woman, several husbands).    

A lot of religions, maybe all of them, support patriarchy.  Even non-religious people support patriarchy:  conservatives, for instance, who assume that if a woman was appointed to a political post it means that a better qualified man must have been passed over, since a woman could not possibly be more qualified than whatever men are available.   It's also why so many men think it's ok to tell women they either must have a baby because they were foolish enough to have sex, or shouldn't have a baby if they expect the father's help in raising that baby.   

 

 

[drummindiver]

2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

So what?  There's an entire subculture of polyamorists in Canada who aren't religious at all, they just don't believe monogamy is necessary.  A lot of them would probably marry if it wasn't illegal.   

I think the problem isn't polygamy (multiple spouses) per se, but that virtually every religion is patriarchal, and patriarchy allows polygyny (one man, several wives) but disallows polyandry (one woman, several husbands).    

A lot of religions, maybe all of them, support patriarchy.  Even non-religious people support patriarchy:  conservatives, for instance, who assume that if a woman was appointed to a political post it means that a better qualified man must have been passed over, since a woman could not possibly be more qualified than whatever men are available.   It's also why so many men think it's ok to tell women they either must have a baby because they were foolish enough to have sex, or shouldn't have a baby if they expect the father's help in raising that baby.   

 

 

So, bit of a gish gallop huh?

Polyamorists wouldn't marry...they want multiple partners without that tie. You are thinking polygamists.

You've covered everything from Satan and Islam to misandry in this thread. Maybe you could tell us who is on your ignore list while we're here?

[dialamah]

3 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

So, bit of a gish gallop huh?

Polyamorists wouldn't marry...they want multiple partners without that tie. You are thinking polygamists.

You've covered everything from Satan and Islam to misandry in this thread. Maybe you could tell us who is on your ignore list while we're here?

I've known polyamorists who've had 'hand-fastings' because they couldn't legally marry and become polygamists.  Certainly not every polyamorist wants to marry, though, but then not every monogamist wants to be married either.

Nobody is on my ignore list, but I do choose to ignore some people or some posts.  

ETA:  Yes, I did try on a previous thread to keep people on the topic I had started with, but it didn't work so to hell with it.   Someone else can do that if they're so inclined.

Edited January 15, 2017 by dialamah

[drummindiver]

Just now, dialamah said:

I've known polyamorists who've had 'hand-fastings' because they couldn't legally marry and become polygamists.  Certainly not every polyamorist wants to marry, though, but then not every monogamist wants to be married either.

Nobody is on my ignore list, but I do choose to ignore some people or some posts.  

 

lol. I'm with you there.