Boges Posted September 30, 2016 Author Report Posted September 30, 2016 Or I could say when in Iran do as they do. Or when in a mosque do as they do. You can choose to not go to Iran or that mosque. It is hardly an imposition to wear ninja pj's, imo. Sure, I don't like it, but it is just not a big deal as a visitor. Yes, I do think it is stupid for Iran to force people to wear this and for countries like France to force people not to wear that. I hope Iranian women are successful some day to get back to that time when they can wear whatever they want. I hope the same thing for people in France too. As long as Canada does not go down this crazy road of the state forcing people to wear/not-wear clothes it really does not matter much. Or kick up a fuss when, in order to play in a chess championship, you have to wear a Hijab. I guess we're all cool with women kicking up a fuss. And good for them, these state-sanctioned misogynistic practice will never changed unless challenged. Quote
msj Posted September 30, 2016 Report Posted September 30, 2016 Ahhh a deflection again. And you're right, it's not so obvious so no one would know. And I would be equally as appalled at a Christian church that mandates dress outside of a place of worship. I attend a church that has no such restriction. Once again, if a person chooses to be a member of some sort of religious order then they choose to wear the religious dress then what should we do about it? Sure, I understand that many of these people are indoctrinated from a young age so consent is unlikely to be genuine (no matter the religion) but why should the state do more than simply be secular and give people the benefit of the doubt and the freedom to choose what they want? We are not talking about children get vaccinate nor blood transfusions here - we are talking about what individuals wear. Quote If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist) My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx
msj Posted September 30, 2016 Report Posted September 30, 2016 Or kick up a fuss when, in order to play in a chess championship, you have to wear a Hijab. I guess we're all cool with women kicking up a fuss. And good for them, these state-sanctioned misogynistic practice will never changed unless challenged. Sure, and I have already suggested many options to challenge them in at least one post above. But what if a woman is not political, just wants to travel to see another culture, says to herself "sure, I would rather not wear ninja pjs but it's a small thing for the opportunity and when in Iran .... " and then goes? What if she has a good time while wearing the ninja pjs? What then? It is an individual decision and if they can get enough of them together to force a change of country then all the power to them. If enough of them decide that the benefits of going outweigh the negatives associated with respecting the customs of the host nation then all the power to them. Either way, an argument can be made and it is all so... petty. Quote If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist) My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx
Boges Posted September 30, 2016 Author Report Posted September 30, 2016 Either way, an argument can be made and it is all so... petty. Says a man, who wouldn't need to face such discrimination, traveling to Iran. Quote
Boges Posted September 30, 2016 Author Report Posted September 30, 2016 Seems this Chess governing body "FIDE" is as corrupt as the IOC or FIFA. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/29/female-chess-players-accuse-governing-body-of-sex-discrimination/ Fide is already reeling after its president, the eccentric multi-millionaire Kirsan Ilyumzhinov, was placed on a US sanctions list for alleged business dealings with Syrian president Bashar al-Assad's regime. Ilyumzhinov has repeatedly denied the allegations and continued to act as leader despite claiming he temporarily delegated his powers to his deputy Georgios Makropoulos. Earlier this month a planned motion to impeach Ilyumzhinov was thrown out by the Fide’s General Assembly at a meeting in Baku. The Telegraph tried to contact Fide, but the federation has not responded. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted September 30, 2016 Report Posted September 30, 2016 (edited) Seems this Chess governing body "FIDE" is as corrupt as the IOC or FIFA. http://www.telegraph...discrimination/ Of course... Edited September 30, 2016 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
msj Posted September 30, 2016 Report Posted September 30, 2016 Says a man, who wouldn't need to face such discrimination, traveling to Iran. Sure, but my wife would face it. Despite that we have discussed travelling there but, due to many reasons, have not been compelled to go. I know my wife will gladly wear ninja pjs to visit Iran. If anything, I'm the one who tends to be the "militant atheist" in the family. At a Buddhist temple in Thailand we were offered to take part in some ceremony. I declined because I did not want to bother to take off my shoes to enter the space and then do whatever they wanted to be done (I don't recall exactly and it was trivial but I really do not like participating in religious events). My wife chose to do it because the anthropologist in her wanted to experience it. I know my wife would choose to go to Iran to play chess (because I have asked her about this). Yeah, it's annoying as hell but the opportunity is otherwise so awesome. Quote If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist) My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx
msj Posted September 30, 2016 Report Posted September 30, 2016 Seems this Chess governing body "FIDE" is as corrupt as the IOC or FIFA. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/29/female-chess-players-accuse-governing-body-of-sex-discrimination/ I like how you suddenly care now that people have to respect the notion of "when in Rome...." Quote If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist) My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx
Boges Posted September 30, 2016 Author Report Posted September 30, 2016 Sure, but my wife would face it. Despite that we have discussed travelling there but, due to many reasons, have not been compelled to go. I know my wife will gladly wear ninja pjs to visit Iran. If anything, I'm the one who tends to be the "militant atheist" in the family. At a Buddhist temple in Thailand we were offered to take part in some ceremony. I declined because I did not want to bother to take off my shoes to enter the space and then do whatever they wanted to be done (I don't recall exactly and it was trivial but I really do not like participating in religious events). My wife chose to do it because the anthropologist in her wanted to experience it. I know my wife would choose to go to Iran to play chess (because I have asked her about this). Yeah, it's annoying as hell but the opportunity is otherwise so awesome. You imply going to Iran for an unrelated reason would be a privilege. Because it such a cool place, for whatever reason. Or you just want to play Chess and resent being told what to wear, to play chess. I guess this thread has descended into assuming what these chess players think. The evidence we have is that there was a chess event held in Iran and that drew the ire of players and multiple players oppose the idea. We also see the the governing body is facing corruption allegations involving Syria. We have a Soccer World Cup that apparently is going to be held in Qatar, because corruption. Would the same corrupt body hold a Women's World Cup in a Muslim nations? and would dress restrictions there be similarly seen as "petty" or "meh"? Quote
Boges Posted September 30, 2016 Author Report Posted September 30, 2016 I like how you suddenly care now that people have to respect the notion of "when in Rome...." It speaks to motive of having an event in such a country. See my previous post. Quote
Guest Posted September 30, 2016 Report Posted September 30, 2016 Says a man, who wouldn't need to face such discrimination, traveling to Iran. I don't know so much. As an apostate who thinks cartoons of prophets are a great idea, I might. Quote
BC_chick Posted September 30, 2016 Report Posted September 30, 2016 (edited) All the power to anyone who wants to boycott, but if any of you are unaware, the hijab issue in Iran is actually pretty tame compared to places like Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia. They tried to toughen up the laws last year but it was struck down. Women in Iran look like this: http://cdn.timesofisrael.com/uploads/2015/01/hijab-635x357.png Full article here: http://www.timesofisrael.com/iran-shoots-down-controversial-new-hijab-law/ Edited September 30, 2016 by BC_chick Quote It's kind of the worst thing that any humans could be doing at this time in human history. Other than that, it's fine." Bill Nye on Alberta Oil Sands
Boges Posted September 30, 2016 Author Report Posted September 30, 2016 All the power to anyone who wants to boycott, but if any of you are unaware, the hijab issue in Iran is actually pretty tame compared to places like Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia. They tried to toughen up the laws last year but it was struck down. Women in Iran look like this: http://cdn.timesofisrael.com/uploads/2015/01/hijab-635x357.png Oh, so being detailed by a "Morality Police" for not wearing a scarf is cool then? Quote
BC_chick Posted September 30, 2016 Report Posted September 30, 2016 Oh, so being detailed by a "Morality Police" for not wearing a scarf is cool then? When did I say it's cool? I think the part about 'all the power to those who want to boycott' was pretty much indicative of my thoughts about the issue not being cool. I'm just pointing out that they're not being forced to cover their hair, wear a chador or burqa. Quote It's kind of the worst thing that any humans could be doing at this time in human history. Other than that, it's fine." Bill Nye on Alberta Oil Sands
The_Squid Posted September 30, 2016 Report Posted September 30, 2016 Is this the type of tolerance we are striving for in Canada? So you have examples of this type of thing happening in Canada? Or you're afraid that Iran is going to invade Canada? Not sure where the Canada connection comes from. Please explain. Quote Science flies you to the moon, Religion flies you into buildings.
msj Posted September 30, 2016 Report Posted September 30, 2016 You imply going to Iran for an unrelated reason would be a privilege. Because it such a cool place, for whatever reason. Or you just want to play Chess and resent being told what to wear, to play chess. I guess this thread has descended into assuming what these chess players think. Pretty sure I have made clear throughout my posts that my speculations are speculations and that it is implicit that my opinions are opinions. Also pretty sure I know how I think about it and have a good idea as to how my wife thinks about it too since I can actually ask her. My wife, for example, resents the fact that I can go run in the park at 9pm when it is dark out. She resents my male privilege of cutting through certain trails in and around town that I can do since I am male, and safe, whereas she is female and must consider the risk more acutely. So, no, being forced to wear ninja pjs for the privilege of experiencing another culture would be par for the course for her and any woman. Is it right? No. of course not. Do I like it? No, of course not. Do I think I can change Iran and make it into a secular democracy? No, of course not. Just glad I do live in one and have the ability to make more choices than other people. Oh, and one other thing - why would you not want to see Iran? Sure, I would love the regime to loosen up, and assuming they did, what's not to love about a country with the history that Iran has? The people look awesome (except for the few authoritarians) , the food looks great, the archaeology is exciting - give your head a shake man. The evidence we have is that there was a chess event held in Iran and that drew the ire of players and multiple players oppose the idea. We also see the the governing body is facing corruption allegations involving Syria. We have a Soccer World Cup that apparently is going to be held in Qatar, because corruption. Would the same corrupt body hold a Women's World Cup in a Muslim nations? and would dress restrictions there be similarly seen as "petty" or "meh"? Events have been and will be held in all kinds of countries with links to corruption and for a variety of good and bad reasons. So, yeah, meh. The evidence we have is that there was a chess event held in Iran and that drew the ire of players and multiple players oppose the idea. We also see the the governing body is facing corruption allegations involving Syria. We have a Soccer World Cup that apparently is going to be held in Qatar, because corruption. Would the same corrupt body hold a Women's World Cup in a Muslim nations? and would dress restrictions there be similarly seen as "petty" or "meh"? Quote If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist) My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx
Boges Posted September 30, 2016 Author Report Posted September 30, 2016 (edited) Oh, and one other thing - why would you not want to see Iran? Sure, I would love the regime to loosen up, and assuming they did, what's not to love about a country with the history that Iran has? The people look awesome (except for the few authoritarians) , the food looks great, the archaeology is exciting - give your head a shake man. Sure, why not, Persian food is great. Not sure if I get such a hard-on for archeology as you do, but to each there own. Plenty of other places I may choose to go first, but whatever. But these people are going to a place to play Chess. It's like saying that athletes for the Olympics would go specifically because it was held in London, Rio or Tokyo etc. They're going to participate in a sports (or activity if you may) that they're gifted at. Adding the caveat that they have to dress a certain way isn't necessary. Edited September 30, 2016 by Boges Quote
msj Posted September 30, 2016 Report Posted September 30, 2016 In Canada dressing a certain way isn't necessary. When in Iran it is. Either choose to go and dress that way or choose one of the other options I have already suggested. Or don't go. That's a choice too. For some people, the benefits of playing chess in Iran, meeting entirely new people and seeing first hand their culture, is worth the inconvenience of wearing ninja pjs. For others, it's not. If my wife were in this she would go. We would both be annoyed at Iran's oppressive rules but we would live with them because the benefits, to us, far outweigh whatever political point we think would be made by staying at home. Quote If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist) My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx
msj Posted September 30, 2016 Report Posted September 30, 2016 Having said that - sure, I would prefer that countries like Iran/China/UAE/Brazil etc not be chosen for these types of events on grounds of corruption and/or backwards cultural practices. Just like I have no problem with the NCAA boycotting North Carolina for transgender legislation reasons. Quote If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist) My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx
Boges Posted September 30, 2016 Author Report Posted September 30, 2016 (edited) If my wife were in this she would go. We would both be annoyed at Iran's oppressive rules but we would live with them because the benefits, to us, far outweigh whatever political point we think would be made by staying at home. Is your wife a world class chess player that qualifies for this tournament? Clearly there are a faction of World Class women chess players that don't appreciate this. Therefore a thread that asks if their concerns are legitimate. Then we have a poster who doesn't debate the issue, but debates why he doesn't care about the issue. Edited September 30, 2016 by Boges Quote
Boges Posted September 30, 2016 Author Report Posted September 30, 2016 Having said that - sure, I would prefer that countries like Iran/China/UAE/Brazil etc not be chosen for these types of events on grounds of corruption and/or backwards cultural practices. Just like I have no problem with the NCAA boycotting North Carolina for transgender legislation reasons. So then we are in agreement. You could have just said that an not gone with the Meh, Dog and Pony show. Quote
msj Posted September 30, 2016 Report Posted September 30, 2016 (edited) Is your wife a world class chess player that qualifies for this tournament? Clearly there are a faction of World Class women chess players that don't appreciate this. Therefore a thread that asks if their concerns are legitimate. Then we have a poster who doesn't debate the issue, but debates why he doesn't care about the issue. Oh, sorry, did not realize that this thread is only open to world class socially awkward geniuses. I will stop posting now since I have put up absolutely no substance to my opinions that you happen to disagree with.... Edited September 30, 2016 by msj Quote If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist) My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx
Boges Posted September 30, 2016 Author Report Posted September 30, 2016 Oh, sorry, did not realize that this thread is only open to world class socially awkward geniuses. I will stop posting now since I have put up absolutely no substance to my opinions that you happen to disagree with.... Well that's the context in which the issue was framed and not people who think Iran would be a swell place to visit. If you think it's a swell place to visit then I'd assume you probably should yield to their cultural practices. Quote
msj Posted September 30, 2016 Report Posted September 30, 2016 So then we are in agreement. You could have just said that an not gone with the Meh, Dog and Pony show. Meh really bugs you huh? Well, M - E - H .... MEH! My mehs here, however, are really about what a petty little issue this is. You want to use it to hit people over the head as to how bad Iran is etc etc.. Well, we know they are bad. This is hardly the reason I think they are bad - bring up something more substantive such as the professor lady recently released from their jail for being "feminist" in her views. But oh no, can't have people putting on ninja pjs and enjoying competing in a chess tournament while they are irked at wearing said ninja pjs. Quote If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist) My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx
msj Posted September 30, 2016 Report Posted September 30, 2016 Well that's the context in which the issue was framed and not people who think Iran would be a swell place to visit. If you think it's a swell place to visit then I'd assume you probably should yield to their cultural practices. Part of being a human is tolerating other cultural practices. Being "forced" to tolerate them because the Chess Association has thrust Iran on them is "meh" worthy because it is a trivial annoyance. Yes, it is not right. No, it is not worth the gnashing of teeth. Quote If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist) My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx
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