Because it's 2016

cybercoma · September 16, 2016

I doubt...highly doubt...he will. Islam obviously both trumps and tramples women's rights. Those female MPs were in veils.

....and said NOTHING.

And they chose to wear them. Just like Catholic nuns choose to wear them. Just like Orthodox Jews choose to wear them. Just like Hindu women choose to wear them. Just like the Roma choose to wear them. Just like brides choose to wear them. Or is it suddenly disgusting that brides are veiled?

dialamah · September 16, 2016

If Trudeau is really a man of principle, he will address this issue himself.

-k

Like it would matter; it's not like people would accept any explanation anyway.

Also, nobody here has explained how being confrontational or shunning those you disagree with works to change their minds or attitudes. Care to tackle that?

DogOnPorch · September 16, 2016

Like it would matter; it's not like people would accept any explanation anyway.

Also, nobody here has explained how being confrontational or shunning those you disagree with works to change their minds or attitudes. Care to tackle that?

Don't fight Jim Crow, it will only make the KKK dig their heels in.

cybercoma · September 16, 2016

Like it would matter; it's not like people would accept any explanation anyway.

Also, nobody here has explained how being confrontational or shunning those you disagree with works to change their minds or attitudes. Care to tackle that?

People like kimmy don't want to change their minds or attitudes. They just want "those people" gone.

DogOnPorch · September 16, 2016

And they chose to wear them. Just like Catholic nuns choose to wear them. Just like Orthodox Jews choose to wear them. Just like Hindu women choose to wear them. Just like the Roma choose to wear them. Just like brides choose to wear them. Or is it suddenly disgusting that brides are veiled?

I'm happy for you that you can support Trudeau in this.

DogOnPorch · September 16, 2016

People like kimmy don't want to change their minds or attitudes. They just want "those people" gone.

Oddly, I feel the same about all racists and misogynists. Odd you do not...in my opinion. But, it's the new Canada. Women won't mind.

cybercoma · September 16, 2016

Don't fight Jim Crow, it will only make the KKK dig their heels in.

You're bringing up this stupid comparison again?

You've got your allegory backwards. Black people were the ones being shunned by society and at times resorted to violence to fight back. That's what happens when you oppress people and tell them they're not part of society, as the Jim Crow Laws did. You know how Jim Crow Laws were fought? By bringing people together and literally ignoring the laws.

DogOnPorch · September 16, 2016

You're bringing up this stupid comparison again?

You've got your allegory backwards. Black people were the ones being shunned by society and at times resorted to violence to fight back. That's what happens when you oppress people and tell them they're not part of society, as the Jim Crow Laws did. You know how Jim Crow Laws were fought? By bringing people together and literally ignoring the laws.

And it works great. Don't fight Jim Crow...might offend the guys with beards...errrr....hoods.

cybercoma · September 16, 2016

Oddly, I feel the same about all racists and misogynists. Odd you do not...in my opinion. But, it's the new Canada. Women won't mind.

Another day where you intentionally misrepresent the things people say to feed your disgusting hatred for people. Got it. I should probably just put you on ignore instead of continuing to feed into your paranoid delusions.

DogOnPorch · September 16, 2016

Another day where you intentionally misrepresent the things people say to feed your disgusting hatred for people. Got it. I should probably just put you on ignore instead of continuing to feed into your paranoid delusions.

Make-up yer mind. Was Trudeau right to go to that event and treat those female MPs that way?

cybercoma · September 16, 2016

I'm done with you. Keep feeding into ISIS propaganda. People like you are the problem and you're too willfully ignorant to see it. Good day.

DogOnPorch · September 16, 2016

I'm done with you. Keep feeding into ISIS propaganda. People like you are the problem and you're too willfully ignorant to see it. Good day.

I accept your unconditional surrender.

kimmy · September 16, 2016

Like it would matter; it's not like people would accept any explanation anyway.

His explanation won't change my mind, but as a show of respect for his supposed feminist ideals he should at least acknowledge the elephant in the room (or the elephant standing in the back row, in this case.)

Also, nobody here has explained how being confrontational or shunning those you disagree with works to change their minds or attitudes. Care to tackle that?

Nobody has explained how lending tacit approval to outdated traditions does anything to promote change either.

I'm not saying he should shun Muslims, I'm suggesting that he could be more selective about which ones he endorses with his presence. I've read that only about half of mosques practice gender segregation. Maybe next time he should find a more progressive one to visit.

-k

DogOnPorch · September 16, 2016

Do you have a few examples of these unsegregated mosques, kimmy?

dialamah · September 16, 2016

His explanation won't change my mind, but as a show of respect for his supposed feminist ideals he should at least acknowledge the elephant in the room (or the elephant standing in the back row, in this case.)

Nobody has explained how lending tacit approval to outdated traditions does anything to promote change either.

I'm not saying he should shun Muslims, I'm suggesting that he could be more selective about which ones he endorses with his presence. I've read that only about half of mosques practice gender segregation. Maybe next time he should find a more progressive one to visit.

-k

Why offer explanations to closed minds?

I have pointed out elsewhere that successful voluntary conversions include going into people's homes, treating them with respect and showing them a better way. I have pointed out that Jesus did not ignore unbelievers or only associate with the already converted or almost converted. Mother Teresa did not limit her help to only people who followed her beliefs. If they had behaved as you and others think appropriate, ignoring and excluding certain "unworthy" people, would they be household names today, noted for their humanity? JT's approach is more likely to lead to the changing of minds and practices than is the shunning and namecalling you, Argus, DoP et al advocate.

*Not comparing JT to either of the people nentioned above; he is a politician after all

Edited September 16, 2016 by dialamah

DogOnPorch · September 16, 2016

Why offer explanations to closed minds?

I have pointed out elsewhere that successful voluntary conversions include going into people's homes, treating them with respect and showing them a better way. I have pointed out that Jesus did not ignore unbelievers or only associate with the already converted or almost converted. Mother Teresa did not limit her help to only people who followed her beliefs. If they had behaved as you and others think appropriate, ignoring and excluding certain "unworthy" people, would they be household names today, noted for their humanity? JT's approach is more likely to lead to the changing of minds and practices than is the shunning and namecalling you, Argus, DoP et al advocate.

*Not comparing JT to either of the people nentioned above; he is a politician after all

Ignore the problem and it will magically go away.

Let's see a list of unsegregated mosques in Canada. They exist...correct?

Benz · September 16, 2016

Yes, had Trudeau gone in there without any women to accompany him, and had he not specifically mentioned his companions and the women "upstairs" then I could see your point.

Also, had Trudeau talked of killing Jews and other such things then I could also see him giving comfort to the extremists.

But he did not do any of that.

You totally miss the point. The blame is not that Trudeau supports their beliefs. The blame is that Trudeau supports them and wants them to support him.

He talked contrary to the extremists views while bringing women into the very room women apparently were not supposed to be (presumably given the reference to the women upstairs).

So all this "legitimizing" nonsense is completely opposite to the facts.

Can you seriously think those guys are going to change their mind just like that? Mister selfie enters in the room and bang, out of sudden they let go their dark thoughts? No, they were playing the game just like Justin did. They let him in, they look like they are open minds, they get legitimity and they can continue to pretend to be the lighthouse of their community with their crappy beliefs.

Yeah, because nothing builds bridges with extremists than to bring women into their little holy room and talk up diversity while specifically bringing attention to the women in the room and the women not in the room.

How efficient is that? You really think you will change those fundamentalists just like that? How confident are you, would you bet your life on it?

Whether we talk about the Muslims Brotherhood in Egypte, the fundamentalists in Iran, the Salafists and the Wahabists in Saudi Arabia, etc... name it. Alot of Muslims escaped those places to come live here and now, they are totally discouraged that the prime minister is playing with them like if they were just kittens. This Care bare attitude has no chances to work out at all.

I understand it can make you feel itchy to be on the same side of the conservatives regarding a topic. I have almost nothing in common with the conservatives myself. I am a center-leftist and in the eye of a conservative, I am a socialist. But there is no way I will defend this non sense attitude of Trudeau. You can't convince those fundamentalists by showing up like this, just like you can't convince a hungry crocodile to not eat you by giving it a hug.

It would have been much better to show up at a non extremists Mosque or community center where the Muslims are not under the influence of fundamentalists. The message would have been more clear. Muslims are people like us and most of them share our values as well. The beliefs of an individual must be irrelevant to its status in our society. A Muslim, or Christian, or Sikh is not important. They are all Canadians and that is the only thing that matter. However, with Trudeau's multiculturalism, those fundamentalists are placing their religion beliefs above everything and they want their followers to obey them prior to our authorities, rules and laws.

You may think that I am exaggerating and falling into the trap of fear. However, I rely on the facts and the history of those groups in the last 5 decades. You rely on the belief that having good intentions can change anyone. Unfortunately it's not true.

The irony of all this, it that most of the extremists exist because of the westeners (mostly USA) foreign policies in the middle east. So many times UK and USA, even France, have supported dictators and sometimes crazy religious groups like the Talibans in Afghanistan and every time it turned out against them. We are no strangers to the existence of those extremists.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Benz

dialamah · September 16, 2016

Nobody ever gets 'changed just like that' unless under threat of death. Nobody changes because everyone around them makes frowny faces either.

If someone does change, its because they wete treated with respect, first and formost, given time and shown positive eamples.

Benz · September 16, 2016

Nobody ever gets 'changed just like that' unless under threat of death. Nobody changes because everyone around them makes frowny faces either.

If someone does change, its because they wete treated with respect, first and formost, given time and shown positive eamples.

How much are you willing to bet? Show me how your respect of the fundamentalists will change them. I get my pop corn and I watch you.

I understand your point. It does not apply on them.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Benz

dialamah · September 16, 2016

How much are you willing to bet? Show me how your respect of the fundamentalists will change them. I get my pop corn and I watch you.

I understand your point. It does not apply on them.

Why not? Are they not people, too?

Benz · September 16, 2016

Why not? Are they not people, too?

Go and try. When someone is so deep in its beliefs, no one else can change that person than itself. Don't get me wrong. Of course we must consider them as human being. Just in case one of them may change. The point is that respect is not enough. First, you must find out how they were drag into that mindset. Then you will figure out what you can try. It does not mean you will succeed.

Argus · September 16, 2016

So I am ignoring it am I?

You are defending it.

Argus · September 16, 2016

No, but are you going to ignore that women are unable to become priests/bishops/cardinals in their hierarchy?

I don't care who runs the sermons in churches temples or mosques. The problem I have is with the demand that males and females be segregated throughout their lives because of the lust women create in men. This is also why women have to cover up while men can walk around in comfortable t-shirts and shorts.

Argus · September 16, 2016

The debate here is about the Mosque segregation and I cant see any scenario were we can say there is a problem with that.

The reason men and women, boys and girls, are segregated in the mosque is not because it's a mosque. They are segregated because according to the koran, and the mosque leadership at this mosque, they must ALWAYS be segregated, lest the women and girls cause lust in the menfolk. It is that ridiculous social convention which is important to push back on.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Argus