Well where are the scientists?

[PIK]

What is the total number of media interviews given by federal scientists for each month since November 2014, broken down by department or agency? Remember: Harper was in charge in November 2014 and would be for another 12 months. Surprising statistic here: Scientists from all government departments gave a combined 1,500 or so media interviews during Harper’s final 12 months in office. Either that’s a very ineffective muzzle or the muzzle was more a creation of his opponents within the civil service.

http://blogs.canoe.com/davidakin/politics/harpers-lost-war-on-science-the-documentary-record/

All the complaining by scientists about being muzzled ,well why are they not screaming at the top of their lungs on what Harper said they could not say?? This article seems to say it was blown out of proportion and the liberals have done nothing to change it.

[Smoke]

You should know by now that 99% of what comes out of the left wing propaganda machine is total bs.

[dialamah]

You should know by now that 99% of what comes out of the left wing propaganda machine is total bs.

Some federal employees with whom I worked were quite happy Harper and Conservatives were gone becsuse they felt they'd be able to accurately report on their findings.

[Smoke]

So where are all the important findings now that the conservative muzzle is now gone?

[poochy]

So where are all the important findings now that the conservative muzzle is now gone?

You wont get anything other than trolling answers, it was bs right from the start. Public service employees that are liberals who used it to smear the government, no different than the liberal veterans who attacked the cons for the pension reform that they didn't write and that the current liberals, even after using it against the conservatives, still have the veterans in court over. Or the audits of environmental charities that the liberals didn't stop after being elected. It was all lies, but these people don't care about those facts.

[dialamah]

So where are all the important findings now that the conservative muzzle is now gone?

I dunno. Given the way things go around here though, it wouldn't matter if I had a dozen examples at my fingertips, they'd be ignored or dismissed. The particular ministry where I worked was just glad to have the muzzle removed.

[Smoke]

I dunno. Given the way things go around here though, it wouldn't matter if I had a dozen examples at my fingertips, they'd be ignored or dismissed. The particular ministry where I worked was just glad to have the muzzle removed.

So there are no findings that had been "muzzled" after all. What a surprise!!!

[Bryan]

You should know by now that 99% of what comes out of the left wing propaganda machine is total bs.

You really think the percentage of BS is that low?

Edited August 31, 2016 by Bryan

[dialamah]

So there are no findings that had been "muzzled" after all. What a surprise!!!

The scientists who previously were not allowed to talk about their research are now able to. The claim in the OP that scientists are not speaking out, and that nothing has changed is wrong, according the following links:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/krist-miller-scientist-dfo-muzzled-1.3308549

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-tuesday-edition-1.3312388/muzzled-rock-snot-scientist-is-now-free-to-speak-with-us-1.3312398

http://www.cbc.ca/news/trending/unmuzzled-scientist-facebook-mother-1.3309303

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/03/10/unmuzzled-scientists-canada-trudeau_n_9432520.html

https://unmuzzledscience.wordpress.com/

[Smoke]

You've given 5 links about how scientists are feeling so relieved that this "muzzle" has been lifted, but still no "findings" that have been previously "muzzled". So once again....where's the science we've been denied under Harper?

You really think the percentage of BS is that low?

[dialamah]

You've given 5 links about how scientists are feeling so relieved that this "muzzle" has been lifted, but still no "findings" that have been previously "muzzled". So once again....where's the science we've been denied under Harper?

*shrugs* I knew you'd disregard whatever I provided. The point is that the scientists did not feel free to talk about their research, and now they do. I could assume that many of the little tidbit of scientific advancement I've read or heard about since last November is a result of not being muzzled. That includes everything from stuff Stats Canada puts out (that's where I worked, and that's the people to whom I spoke directly who said they could now put out the information they USED to put out), to information on climate change, or effects of fracking.

[Guest]

So there are no findings that had been "muzzled" after all. What a surprise!!!

The scientists who previously were not allowed to talk about their research are now able to. The claim in the OP that scientists are not speaking out, and that nothing has changed is wrong, according the following links:

Smoke...that must be a little embarrassing. Ouch.

Canadian scientists have certainly been unmuzzled, but there are still some restrictions leftover from the Harper regime. For instance scientists are free to talk about their work but the press still aren't able to contact them directly. The press has to send interview requests through government departments. Also, scientists want the right of last review on government communications regarding their work. The Harper government sometimes issued statements that misrepresented the work being done by federal scientists, and then of course those researchers weren't able to talk to anyone to correct the lie. Understandably, scientists now want the ability to review government statements involving their work so it doesn't happen again.

Most Canadians don't realize just how unethical and draconian the previous government's dealings with the scientific community were.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Guest

[drummindiver]

Smoke...that must be a little embarrassing. Ouch.

Canadian scientists have certainly been unmuzzled, but there are still some restrictions leftover from the Harper regime. For instance scientists are free to talk about their work but the press still aren't able to contact them directly. The press has to send interview requests through government departments. Also, scientists want the right of last review on government communications regarding their work. The Harper government sometimes issued statements that misrepresented the work being done by federal scientists, and then of course those researchers weren't able to talk to anyone to correct the lie. Understandably, scientists now want the ability to review government statements involving their work so it doesn't happen again.

Most Canadians don't realize just how unethical and draconian the previous government's dealings with the scientific community were.

What is there to be emberassed about? He asked what science had been unmuzzled and was given five personal experiences, not five scientific studies that had been declassified. Clearly, diamelah cannot show even one instance of scientific unfettering. Ouch. Emberassing indeed.

[drummindiver]

*shrugs* I knew you'd disregard whatever I provided. The point is that the scientists did not feel free to talk about their research, and now they do. I could assume that many of the little tidbit of scientific advancement I've read or heard about since last November is a result of not being muzzled. That includes everything from stuff Stats Canada puts out (that's where I worked, and that's the people to whom I spoke directly who said they could now put out the information they USED to put out), to information on climate change, or effects of fracking.

? So according to you Harper did not allow Statistics to be updated? Clearly, again, you are using personal anecdotes.

[dialamah]

? So according to you Harper did not allow Statistics to be updated? Clearly, again, you are using personal anecdotes.

He very tightly controlled access to and disemmination of information, especially information that conflicted with his policies. That control has been lifted. That is the unmuzzling being spoken of in the OP's link and in the examples I provided. Changing the actual issue to whether or not research occurred while Harper was in power doesn't mean that you are right. It means you are partisan to a fault.

Edited August 31, 2016 by dialamah

[?Impact]

the liberals have done nothing to change it.

The article by David Akin you linked to very clearly shows that the Liberals have indeed changed things:

Media requests for interviews with scientists are shared with the Minister’s Office for information only. There is no review or approval required on their part before we proceed with the interview. While media requests on policy, enforcement, international affairs, etc. still go through approvals processes, for science requests this is not required

This is very different from the previous Harper policy that stated:

all media queries must now be routed through Ottawa where “media relations will work with individual staff to decide how to best handle the call; this could include: Asking the program expert to respond with approved lines; having media relations respond; referring the call to the minister’s office; referring the call to another department,”

Do you not see the difference between them?

Yes, it does sound like not everyone got the memo:

Scientific integrity remains an active concern. A communications policy was issued by Treasury Board with the intention to end “muzzling,” but its implementation remains uneven across science-based departments. Scientists are still being prevented from participating in conferences that allow them to engage with the broader scientific community. Moreover, there has been no indication that the government intends to enshrine the principles of scientific integrity in collective agreements, meaning there are no enforceable safeguards to protect against future anti-science governments.

That sounds more like the problem turning around the ship. The captain issues the command, but the pilot and engine room were so used to the previous course they were following for the past 9 years that they are not responding fast enough. After so many years of brainwashing by the back room boys at the PMO, it will take awhile to clear out the clutter.

[drummindiver]

He very tightly controlled access to and disemmination of information, especially information that conflicted with his policies. That control has been lifted. That is the unmuzzling being spoken of in the OP's link and in the examples I provided. Changing the actual issue to whether or not research occurred while Harper was in power doesn't mean that you are right. It means you are partisan to a fault.

k

Personal anecdotes from Liberal scientists in the CBC does not prove I am partisan to a fault. However......

You have changed th goal posts. You are the one who has made a claim and supplied no relevant information backing it. The OP stated that there had not been a muzzle in the first place and it was just more HDS from the left, which your links helped verify.

Please stay on topic. No one was discussing whether science was happening under Harper.

[poochy]

The article by David Akin you linked to very clearly shows that the Liberals have indeed changed things:

Media requests for interviews with scientists are shared with the Minister’s Office for information only. There is no review or approval required on their part before we proceed with the interview. While media requests on policy, enforcement, international affairs, etc. still go through approvals processes, for science requests this is not required

This is very different from the previous Harper policy that stated:

all media queries must now be routed through Ottawa where “media relations will work with individual staff to decide how to best handle the call; this could include: Asking the program expert to respond with approved lines; having media relations respond; referring the call to the minister’s office; referring the call to another department,”

Do you not see the difference between them?

Yes, it does sound like not everyone got the memo:

Scientific integrity remains an active concern. A communications policy was issued by Treasury Board with the intention to end “muzzling,” but its implementation remains uneven across science-based departments. Scientists are still being prevented from participating in conferences that allow them to engage with the broader scientific community. Moreover, there has been no indication that the government intends to enshrine the principles of scientific integrity in collective agreements, meaning there are no enforceable safeguards to protect against future anti-science governments.

That sounds more like the problem turning around the ship. The captain issues the command, but the pilot and engine room were so used to the previous course they were following for the past 9 years that they are not responding fast enough. After so many years of brainwashing by the back room boys at the PMO, it will take awhile to clear out the clutter.

OK, so where is all of the science we so desperately missed, it's either or, they are still muzzled, or they aren't. If they aren't we should have all sorts of revelations now that they weren't allowed to speak about before, but we don't because the idea that we were missing anything is an enormous lie, but we know how liberals love to be lied to. Hey, remember how Harper destroyed our environment? It seems to have recovered surprisingly quickly.

But i did enjoy the part where you claimed this was somehow about slow process of change to new government, the only thing better than being lied to is lying to yourself, there is nothing new, no science that we didn't already know, the whole thing was part of the evil conservatives narrative that liberal liars told the country for a decade, be better.

Edited August 31, 2016 by poochy

[poochy]

Smoke...that must be a little embarrassing. Ouch.

Canadian scientists have certainly been unmuzzled, but there are still some restrictions leftover from the Harper regime. For instance scientists are free to talk about their work but the press still aren't able to contact them directly. The press has to send interview requests through government departments. Also, scientists want the right of last review on government communications regarding their work. The Harper government sometimes issued statements that misrepresented the work being done by federal scientists, and then of course those researchers weren't able to talk to anyone to correct the lie. Understandably, scientists now want the ability to review government statements involving their work so it doesn't happen again.

Most Canadians don't realize just how unethical and draconian the previous government's dealings with the scientific community were.

Harper Harper Harper, utter garbage. Hey, the libs have had most of a year to completely change any policy the wished, so which is it, Harper was evil and so are the liberals, or neither? Delusional nonsense as usual. There are no leftovers that they didn't choose to keep, it honestly makes me sick to see the sort of lies your type is willing to tell.

[Guest]

Harper Harper Harper, utter garbage. Hey, the libs have had most of a year to completely change any policy the wished, so which is it, Harper was evil and so are the liberals, or neither? Delusional nonsense as usual. There are no leftovers that they didn't choose to keep, it honestly makes me sick to see the sort of lies your type is willing to tell.

The gags have been removed and the draconian Harper days are done. Scientists are now seeking assurances they never had before, like the right of last review codified in law, to protect them from the next Harper.

[Smoke]

Without evidence of anything being "muzzled" the whole narrative from the left is nothing more than their usual bs.

[dialamah]

Without evidence of anything being "muzzled" the whole narrative from the left is nothing more than their usual bs.

Now way back I said if you were given proof of muzzling, you'd ignore and dismiss it. Proof was provided in several articles, including the OP article. Yet, here you are -- saying it didn't happen. Always funny when someone does exactly as predicted.

[Guest]

Without evidence of anything being "muzzled" the whole narrative from the left is nothing more than their usual bs.

Oh I see, you're trying to claim that scientists were never muzzled? So in your mind the protest rallies that took place, the findings by outside organizations and the position taken by your brethren that muzzling was good practice to "protect intellectual property" were all over a fictitious issue? Wow, this puts you out in the fringe even among conservatives.

In the David Akin blog you linked, scientists claimed they were being muzzled and the government claimed it was just a communications policy that requires ministerial approval to "assist managers and employees in responding to media calls." What Akin doesn't mention is the approval process was often delayed until after the deadlines of the press organizations requesting interviews. Simply, dragging out the approval process meant that scientists could never comment on issues that didn't jive with CPC ideology.

In fact, Environment Canada's media office granted no more interviews after a team published a paper in 2011 concluding that a 2 degree C increase in global temperatures may be unavoidable. http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/faq-the-issues-around-muzzling-government-scientists-1.3079537

In one instance from 2014, a request from The Canadian Press to speak to federal government scientist Max Bothwell about his work on algae led to a 110-page email exchange to and from 16 different federal government communications officers.

In the end, Bothwell was not interviewed before the Canadian Press article was published.

In addition, Canadian federal science departments were graded for openness of communication, protection against political interference, rights to free speech, and protection for whistleblowers. The findings were as expected for muzzled experts:

- Government media policies do not support open and timely communication between scientists and journalists nor do they protect scientists’ right to free speech.

- Government media policies do not protect against political interference in science communication.

- The Department of National Defence scored top marks for open communication, while the Canadian Space Agency, Public Works and Government Services Canada, Industry Canada and Natural Resources Canada were all tied for last place with failing grades.

- All but one department (Department of National Defence) scored lower that the United States average in 2013 (as graded by the Union of Concerned Scientists).

https://evidencefordemocracy.ca/sites/default/files/reports/Can%20Scientists%20Speak_.pdf

[Smoke]

Now way back I said if you were given proof of muzzling, you'd ignore and dismiss it. Proof was provided in several articles, including the OP article. Yet, here you are -- saying it didn't happen. Always funny when someone does exactly as predicted.

No, proof has NOT been provided. You have given 5 articles where scientists are claiming they are happy to be out from under some perceived "muzzle". But no where at any time have you given an example of scientific findings that are now accessible to the public that were not accessible before this so-called "muzzle" was lifted.

[Smoke]

Oh I see, you're trying to claim that scientists were never muzzled? So in your mind the protest rallies that took place, the findings by outside organizations and the position taken by your brethren that muzzling was good practice to "protect intellectual property" were all over a fictitious issue? Wow, this puts you out in the fringe even among conservatives.

In the David Akin blog you linked....

No where in this thread have I provided a link...no idea what you're ranting on about...