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Has society left men behind?


Argus

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Maybe women are more engaged in education because if they don't get one they have a really good chance of working minimum wage in the service industry. Men on the other can make 70k as plumbers.

Yes, 7 year old boys and girls have different behavior in grade 2 because they have thought ahead 20 years down the road and decided whether their career choice at that time is likely to require a degree or not. Every 6 year old boy has definitely considered their potential future salary as a plumber. That's DEFINITELY the reason.

Edited by Bonam
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Because its a boy job.

Most women don't seem to want to work in trades, just like most men don't want to be hairstylists.

Exactly, and the key point here is that it is a choice. The "wage gap" comes from the blue collar sector, but it has nothing to do with discrimination or sexism or any of that other nonsense that feminists gripe about.

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My current hairstylist is a man and the last time I had to call a plumber, it was a woman. It's 2016, time to throw those stereotypes out the window.

Well, that's two. Alert the press. Gender disparity in employment no longer exists. There's two people who've entered fields that their genders aren't typically well represented in--all is well,
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You see more women skippering boats in my industry now. I recall when they weren't even allowed to tie the boat up.

I wonder how many of the real men on here demand to be let off the plane when they hear the voice of woman pilot come over the PA. I've seen men walk off a boat when they realized who wasn't running it.

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Well, that's two. Alert the press. Gender disparity in employment no longer exists. There's two people who've entered fields that their genders aren't typically well represented in--all is well,

Yep. The only reason for more or less people of certain genders in certain careers is because more/fewer people of that gender want to go into that career by choice, not because something is keeping them from doing so.

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My current hairstylist is a man and the last time I had to call a plumber, it was a woman. It's 2016, time to throw those stereotypes out the window.

Well your anecdotes are really neat bro! But women still make up only 5 percent of skilled professionals, and 85% of hairstylist or aesthetician's.

Gender roles wont change overnight just from education, and not all gender roles are the result of sexism. Trades are an area where males physicality gives them an advantage. Gender roles are the result of thousands of years of human evolution. It will take a lot of time to change them, and they will never go away completely.

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The question is why don't most women WANT to be a plumber?

The question really is why isn't the low number of female plumbers considered as 'systemic discrimination' requiring the determined recruitment of female plumbers and the lowering of standards, if necessary, to accommodate them? I mean, we did that with police and firefighters...

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Yep. The only reason for more or less people of certain genders in certain careers is because more/fewer people of that gender want to go into that career by choice, not because something is keeping them from doing so.

The question is WHY fewer people want to go in those careers. Your thought process is a skim coat on the problem. Why are jobs gendered in the first place? Programming is a key example, where there were many more women coders in the 80s then suddenly that all turned around and it became a "man's" job. Visibility plays a hugely important role in the choices people perceive they have available to them. Women were traditionally kept out of a lot of jobs and still are due to discrimination and harassment. It takes a thick skin to put up with abuse and continue to pursue your dreams, rather than going an "easier" or more "traditional" route. And the same can be said for men who are discriminated in jobs that are considered feminine. This whole idea of masculine and feminine jobs IS the issue. Reflect on why jobs are gendered in the first place.

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The question really is why isn't the low number of female plumbers considered as 'systemic discrimination' requiring the determined recruitment of female plumbers and the lowering of standards, if necessary, to accommodate them? I mean, we did that with police and firefighters...

Likely because plumbers, electricians, and carpenters are independent contractors, whereas police and firefighters are employees of the government. There may be an argument that licensed tradespeople need to recruit more female apprentices but the issue starts way before that.

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Likely because plumbers, electricians, and carpenters are independent contractors, whereas police and firefighters are employees of the government.

Not usually. Those specific vocations are highly unionized actually.

But still have to respond to market pressure. Government agencies don't so they can't pass down an edict to hire people to represent diversity even though it may not make their workforce more productive or efficient.

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The question is WHY fewer people want to go in those careers. Your thought process is a skim coat on the problem. Why are jobs gendered in the first place? Programming is a key example, where there were many more women coders in the 80s then suddenly that all turned around and it became a "man's" job. Visibility plays a hugely important role in the choices people perceive they have available to them. Women were traditionally kept out of a lot of jobs and still are due to discrimination and harassment. It takes a thick skin to put up with abuse and continue to pursue your dreams, rather than going an "easier" or more "traditional" route. And the same can be said for men who are discriminated in jobs that are considered feminine. This whole idea of masculine and feminine jobs IS the issue. Reflect on why jobs are gendered in the first place.

And all of this has what all to do with 6 year old boys being drugged with Ritalin, which is how this conversation started? I don't know why there are still "gendered jobs". Probably because lefties keep bringing up gender (and race) every 3 seconds rather than shutting up and letting people do what they want.

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Well your anecdotes are really neat bro! But women still make up only 5 percent of skilled professionals, and 85% of hairstylist or aesthetician's.

5% of "skilled professionals"? So only 5% of lawyers, doctors, engineers, etc, are women? Cite? Or is whatever cite your referencing (but didn't link) confusing "skilled professionals" with "skilled tradespeople"?

Trades are an area where males physicality gives them an advantage.

Many trades rely just as much (or more) on dexterity as they do on strength, and men have no advantage in that regard. Further, both men and women typically have sufficient strength to carry out the tasks commonly involved in most trades, besides a few such as construction.

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Likely because plumbers, electricians, and carpenters are independent contractors, whereas police and firefighters are employees of the government. There may be an argument that licensed tradespeople need to recruit more female apprentices but the issue starts way before that.

And like I said despite considerable effort to level the playing field, and the fact that some progress HAS been made, stereotypical gender roles are still mostly intact as is the gender wage gap.

For example:

Construction - 1117 Thousand men - 150 Thousand women.

But...

Healthcare and social Services - 376 Thousand men - 1751 Thousand women.

I know there are a lot of factors that account for this, but I think that there's some genetics in play too. Women have been caregivers for thousands and thousands of years. I think gender roles are partly evolutionary. And I think that even if you completely stripped society of every last bit of gender bias that results from us being a patriarchal society, that gender roles would still exist.

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I know there are a lot of factors that account for this, but I think that there's some genetics in play too. Women have been caregivers for thousands and thousands of years. I think gender roles are partly evolutionary. And I think that even if you completely stripped society of every last bit of gender bias that results from us being a patriarchal society, that gender roles would still exist.

What's wrong with gender roles? What's wrong with acknowledging that men and women have different instinctive interests and behaviour?

You bring up the fact women are generally much more interested in nurturing roles, which is true. Society doesn't seem to have a problem with that. People aren't wringing their hands over the low number of male teachers or nurses, or the fact women are increasingly outnumbering men in a lot of fields. No one is demanding action to reverse this.

But in professions where men are the majority there are constant efforts to promote women into roles they haven't shown much interest in. We bend over backwards and lower the rules while desperately trying to persuade women to join the army, police, firefighting, and other services, like EMTs and the trades, where physical strength plays a major role in ability, ignoring and discounting the advantage men have. We also actively try to recruit female engineers and scientists, even though girls normally have much less interest in this than men.

Edited by Argus
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And all of this has what all to do with 6 year old boys being drugged with Ritalin, which is how this conversation started? I don't know why there are still "gendered jobs". Probably because lefties keep bringing up gender (and race) every 3 seconds rather than shutting up and letting people do what they want.

Gendered jobs exist because people point out that they exist. Racism exists because people call it out. That's the argument you're going with?

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What's wrong with gender roles? What's wrong with acknowledging that men and women have different instinctive interests and behaviour?

Well some of them are perfectly natural and normal. But some of them are the result of pressures and biases in a patriarchal male dominated society.

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Gendered jobs exist because people point out that they exist. Racism exists because people call it out. That's the argument you're going with?

Darn right. How many girls that might be interested in a career in software, physics, or math have heard about "systemic biases" and "patriarchal society" and such thousands of times throughout their lives and decide that the obstacles must be too great and decide to go with a more "gender appropriate" career? Self-fulfilling prophecy.

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The question is WHY fewer people want to go in those careers.

The question is why do we care now? The structural barriers have been eliminated. Women are free to choose whatever career they want and choose and they don't, on average, choose to follow patterns that keep the PC bean counters happy. Why is the dearth of women in engineering any more of a problem that the dearth of men in nursing or the gender imbalance in law and medical schools? Edited by TimG
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The question is WHY fewer people want to go in those careers. Your thought process is a skim coat on the problem. Why are jobs gendered in the first place? Programming is a key example, where there were many more women coders in the 80s then suddenly that all turned around and it became a "man's" job. Visibility plays a hugely important role in the choices people perceive they have available to them. Women were traditionally kept out of a lot of jobs and still are due to discrimination and harassment. It takes a thick skin to put up with abuse and continue to pursue your dreams, rather than going an "easier" or more "traditional" route. And the same can be said for men who are discriminated in jobs that are considered feminine. This whole idea of masculine and feminine jobs IS the issue. Reflect on why jobs are gendered in the first place.

I attended school in the 80's for computer analysis and programming and the ratio was probably 60/40 and upon graduation I was immediately hired and worked alongside many female programmers. I am no longer a programmer but I still work in the IT industry and most of the women I worked with have moved up to managerial positions. I no longer see the number of female programmers that once existed. I'm not sure why but it's a great disappointment to me because it's one of the higher paying positions that women should have access to.

Edited by WestCoastRunner
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Well some of them are perfectly natural and normal. But some of them are the result of pressures and biases in a patriarchal male dominated society.

I'm all for making sure anyone who wants to do a job be allowed to do it - as long as they're as good as the others doing it. I see no particular purpose, however, in trying to persuade girls and women into doing something they have little interest in merely to satisfy some progressive's view of how numbers should add up.

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