Ontario announces plan to destroy its economy

[Boges]

What I'd like to see first, is ensure that the province's base load is generated by 100% non fossil fuel sources before they try to phase out natural gas heating.

It would be soooo Ontario Liberals to have a good percentage of electricity generated by Natural Gas yet trying to muscle people to replace their Natural Gas furnaces.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Boges

[waldo]

why the scurrySpeculateFlurry?

[waldo]

So let's assume the retail cost of an electric furnace, including installation is $3,000. You believe that the Ontario government can afford to provide a 100% subsidy to every home not currently using electric heating? Including those currently under construction or recently built?

again, you're speculating... even the "leaked" overview speaks of 2030 as the year new homes built after must be heated without using fossil fuels, such as natural gas. Have you not heard of gas-to-electric furnace conversions?

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[Boges]

gas-to-electric furnace conversions?

How much is that?

[andromeda]

you earlier raised a concern based on your presumed personal cost impact... you are aware the plan overview speaks to subsidizing increase costs to consumers - yes?

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ha ha ha ha ha. the subsidy will work something like this...... if you have 7 people living together with a combined income of less than $30,000 (and a one eyed cat) you may be eligible for some kind of hydro rate relief. government doesn't subsidize anyone. it will be mainly hydro consumers who fall out of that threshold who will be subsidizing lower income hydro consumers by paying even higher rates.

[Argus]

I tweaked the criteria within that savings calculator 3 different times and came up with an average where electricity was ~210% more costly than gas... an annual price differential, on average, of about $1500. Enbridge Gas was also up front in acknowledging that high efficiency heating systems are 90% efficient and conventional/mid efficient heating systems are considered to be 80% efficient.

So the explanation of our resident Liberal party shill is that the Liberal plan would ONLY double the cost of home heating?

Of course, this ignores the fact the price of electricity continues to rise by double digits every year due to his party's fantastic incompetence on this file.

but wait, what's this? What's the key point detractors are avoiding in this thread as they "purposely" presume to play the high-cost impact card for consumers? That's right... somehow, no one has mentioned that the proposed plan states any impacting price increases to consumers will be subsidized by the province. Now why would that lil' ditty be ignored by the detractos, hey?

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Oh, well, so that's all right, then! The costs won't be born by Ontario rate payers! It will be born by Ontario taxpayers! Who are, of course, an entirely different group of people!

[waldo]

ha ha ha ha ha. the subsidy will work something like this......

yes, I also would laugh at your peculiar and self-serving interpretation of that overview's reference to subsidy.

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[-1=e^ipi]

if we really want to cut the burning of fossil fuels and not turn to gas fired power generation then we're going to have to build more nuclear plants.

But nuclear doesn't help us feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

I wonder what effect it will have on climate change...?

Let's see... Ontario emits about 12 megatons of CO2 per year. If we were to stop all emissions today (assuming a decay rate of about 100 years for CO2 as it gets absorbed by oceans and a transient climate response of 1.5 C), this works to about 0.36 ppm less atmospheric CO2 and 0.002 C lower global temperatures by 2116.

[waldo]

So the explanation of our resident Liberal party shill is that the Liberal plan would ONLY double the cost of home heating?

Of course, this ignores the fact the price of electricity continues to rise by double digits every year due to his party's fantastic incompetence on this file.

Oh, well, so that's all right, then! The costs won't be born by Ontario rate payers! It will be born by Ontario taxpayers! Who are, of course, an entirely different group of people!

so the interpretation of our resident Conservative party hack is to simply throw out an unsubstantiated 600% increase figure from a gas company spokesperson (one who acknowledges the company has yet to see the plan... or the leak of the (draft/developing) plan)... the key impacted industry in the described plan intent.

unlike you in your rush to simply throw down an unsubstantiated increase figure, the diligent waldo actually looked for a reference to offer representative costing; i.e., the Enbridge Gas Savings Calculator. I appreciate you forever detest actual cited references, particularly those that burst your preferred bubbles.

you can continue to offer your unsubstantiated opinions - no worries. And what's this, without seeing the plan... without seeing details/particulars on how the plan might presume to pay for, uhhh... subsidies, you're already throwing any subsidy cost back onto the taxpayer... cause nuthin can ever pay for itself, even partially! Of course you are.

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Edited May 18, 2016 by waldo

[-1=e^ipi]

I was peeved off too when I heard about this but then, I thought, their Toronto supporters will be too and the Liberals will be gone in the next elections and the next government, hopefully, thinks this is going too far. The CEO of the OBE is the CEO of Union Gas and I think HE won't like this either!

Nah, liberals will still win the next election. They have a giant warchest to fund the next campaign due to their shakedown of corporations http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ontario-liberals-face-backlash-over-fundraising-pressure-tactics/article29467353/.

Besides, who will beat them? The NDP who are just as extreme (actually to be honest, Notley seems like a pretty good premier in comparison)? The pc's who will just elect another religious nutcase who will alienate the majority? One of the smaller parts which no one seems to know of?

And of course after the Ontario liberals win the next election, they will implement a similar voting system as what the federal liberals will implement, and the Ontario liberals will completely skip a referendum.

but if you're fully going to take advantage of solar power when building new housing projects attention has to be made towards roof angles and structure not to mention walls bearing solar panels will have to be built facing south. housing projects will have to be designed to optimize the path of the sun. solar energy makes a lot more sense than wind turbines. it's certainly doable but has to be planned from the start.

Optimality? Roof angles? Pfft, all this negativity isn't how we use Sunny Ways to move towards the 4th industrial revolution. I live near a giant solar panel and the incompetent people running it often point it in the wrong direction.

Ontario manufacturing was gutted by a Canadian dollar.

So then why hasn't it returned with the recent low Trudeau dollar? It's not like a tripling of energy prices could have an impact on an energy intensive industry or anything...

https://www.thestar.com/business/2014/05/08/magna_says_no_new_plants_for_canada_cites_ontario_energy_costs.html

[andromeda]

yes, I also would laugh at your peculiar and self-serving interpretation of that overview's reference to subsidy.

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my interpretation is based on what the liberals have done in the past for those incapable of paying their hydro bills. it is also based on an auditor general report regarding electrical generation in Ontario. it alleges there has been poor planning, neglect of maintenance being done on existing infrastructure, failure to listen to expert advice, questionable procurement processes on how contracts were awarded, and a total disregard for consumer's escalating hydro bills. what is your sunny disposition that the liberals might finally do something right based on?

[overthere]

Doesn't speak to the fact that with Time of Use electric rates, and the price of natural gas, no one would opt to go with electricity to heat their homes.

So those benefits have to stop, like know! All those new houses being built in the GTA aren't being built with electric furnaces. The government is going to show up in 10, 20 years to rip them all out? Sounds like a huge waste of money to me. Oh that's what this government does best.

It is not just 'time of use' rates that the government will use to empty the pockets of helpless citizens. Wait until they introduce demand charges , which have been in place for commerical and industrial for decades. Demand charges billing will insure that you don't get a big bill one month, it makes certain you get a whopper every month regardless of how much you actually used that month.

[waldo]

my interpretation is based on what the liberals have done in the past for those incapable of paying their hydro bills. it is also based on an auditor general report regarding electrical generation in Ontario. it alleges there has been poor planning, neglect of maintenance being done on existing infrastructure, failure to listen to expert advice, questionable procurement processes on how contracts were awarded, and a total disregard for consumer's escalating hydro bills. what is your sunny disposition that the liberals might finally do something right based on?

nice Gish Gallop ... fitting that you didn't mention the word subsidy once - you know, that particular point of discussion. Your self-serving interpretation means nothing - I appreciate some here/you prefer to rely on your navel-gazing to craft summations to support your agenda. Others/the waldo, will wait for an actual plan, with actual details and proposed funding/related costs/sustainability facets/etc..

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[Boges]

nice Gish Gallop ... fitting that you didn't mention the word subsidy once - you know, that particular point of discussion. Your self-serving interpretation means nothing - I appreciate some here/you prefer to rely on your navel-gazing to craft summations to support your agenda. Others/the waldo, will wait for an actual plan, with actual details and proposed funding/related costs/sustainability facets/etc..

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You may never get to see it. Why do you think it was leaked in the first place? Some in the government must think the plan is madness and want the public to know what's planned.

Most in the public aren't as sympathetic to how this government does business as you do.

[waldo]

Why do you think it was leaked in the first place?

well... you know - "enemies of the state"! Keep on the BogesSpeculationTrain!

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[Guest]

But nuclear doesn't help us feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Let's see... Ontario emits about 12 megatons of CO2 per year. If we were to stop all emissions today (assuming a decay rate of about 100 years for CO2 as it gets absorbed by oceans and a transient climate response of 1.5 C), this works to about 0.36 ppm less atmospheric CO2 and 0.002 C lower global temperatures by 2116.

Has anyone considered the effect on sunscreen sales?

[Argus]

so the interpretation of our resident Conservative party hack

I've criticized the Conservatives MANY times. Can you find and link to a single time you've ever dared to utter a discouraging word about your Liberals, Waldo?

is to simply throw out an unsubstantiated 600% increase figure from a gas company spokesperson

To which Waldo says "Don't worry! It will only cost twice as much, not six times! Er, as long as the price of electricity doesn't rise... heh heh heh..."

[waldo]

I've criticized the Conservatives MANY times. Can you find and link to a single time you've ever dared to utter a discouraging word about your Liberals, Waldo?

oh pleeeese! Give it up. Your continuing charade in posturing as an independent voice of reason beggars belief... you presuming to be the arbiter in determining degrees of partisanship is always good for an, "I just can't believe he said that", thought!

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To which Waldo says "Don't worry! It will only cost twice as much, not six times! Er, as long as the price of electricity doesn't rise... heh heh heh..."

no worries - I relish any of your posts where you revert to outright fabrication as the waldo bursts yet another of your unsubstantiated opinions.

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[Charles Anthony]

Guys,

Stop the thread drift and stop the silly personal attacks.

[Ash74]

In all fairness we have been lied to many, many times by the Ontario Liberals and their numbers have been "stretch goals" when talking about the cost to the people of Ontario.

I actually believe Wynne had this leaked so she would be safely out of the country and with all the other announcements coming out of Queen's Park this new climate change plan will be yesterday's news. Combined with a watered down version so the Liberals can claim that they listened to the people and acted accordingly.

[Smoke]

clarification please: I keep reading you referring to someone named "Orville"... who is this... do you have a last name?

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Sorry...I meant to say "Kathleen Wynne" but I live in eastern Ontario (conservative territory) and that's how everyone out here refers to her....because she so resembles popcorn icon Orville Redenbacker (well maybe Orville is a bit better looking). Sorry mods, I'll try to be more careful.

[Smoke]

Well at least the lefties are now admitting that the country went thru a major down turn in the economy. But federally it was still Harper's fault.

[waldo]

Sorry...I meant to say "Kathleen Wynne" but I live in eastern Ontario (conservative territory) and that's how everyone out here refers to her....because she so resembles popcorn icon Orville Redenbacker (well maybe Orville is a bit better looking). Sorry mods, I'll try to be more careful.

clarification: when you say, "you'll try to be more careful"... are you saying that going forward you'll make sure to include both names, both Orville & Redenbacher... or that you'll use the Premier of Ontario's proper designation/name?

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[Boges]

clarification: when you say, "you'll try to be more careful"... are you saying that going forward you'll make sure to include both names, both Orville & Redenbacher... or that you'll use the Premier of Ontario's proper designation/name?

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So McWynnety? Gotcha!

[Charles Anthony]

Folks,

Please avoid insulting nick names.