Canada's Right

[Guest eureka]

Does that mean that you disagree, Argus?

[Newfie Canadian]

The cultural value systems are largely the same, as well.

You don't see diverging views in both the citizenry and political establishment of Canada and the US on such fundamental issues as the importance of multinational organizations, same sex marriage, marijauna and trade issues?

[Argus]

The cultural value systems are largely the same, as well.

You don't see diverging views in both the citizenry and political establishment of Canada and the US on such fundamental issues as the importance of multinational organizations, same sex marriage, marijauna and trade issues?

Nope. Do you actually think, if we had a nation-wide referendum, that same-sex marriage would pass? Possibly in Quebec. Nowhere else. How about decriminalizing marijuana? Do you not think Americans in most states would vote to decriminalize marijuana if they had the chance? As for such things as the UN and trade issues, few Canadians or Americans give such things much thought.

Now I'd agree that our political culture is further to the left than the American political culture, mainly for two reasons. One is Quebec, which is far further to the left than English Canada, and the other is religion, which is far more important in the United States than it is in Canada.

[August1991]

One is Quebec, which is far further to the left than English Canada, and the other is religion, which is far more important in the United States than it is in Canada.

Argus, I will first point out that half of all Canadians are Catholic whereas only 20% of Americans are Catholic. In many ways, Canadians vote like American Catholics. I think the relevance here is that many Catholics on either side of the border have a French-Canadian or Irish background. They are sympathetic to the underdog.

The political views of Quebecers are hard to describe because the National Question predominates everything. (Remember that Quebecers voted for Mulroney and free trade. Rene Levesque joined the US Army.)

I would agree that Quebecers are social liberals and historically, they have always taken a much broader view of sexual matters than the rest of Canada.

Statistics show that Americans are more church-going than Canadians but I have seen other stats showing that there is a large discrepancy between what Americans say about church and what they in fact do.

[Cartman]

August is too kind. Statistics also show that even in Alberta, but most certainly in the rest of Canada including that part of Canada called Quebec, there are many "liberals" or so-called "socialists" that vote against right-wing parties. This is what I am talking about Argus. There is a difference between Canadians and Americans and I am sorry if you do not see the difference. The new generation is creating "Canadiana".

[Argus]

August is too kind.  Statistics also show that even in Alberta, but most certainly in the rest of Canada including that part of Canada called Quebec, there are many "liberals" or so-called "socialists" that vote against right-wing parties.

And the point is.... ?

Do you presume there aren't a helluva lot of liberal Americans in Texas and Florida and Colorado who vote against right-wing parties? Hey, quick quiz, where was Bill Clinton from?

This is what I am talking about Argus.  There is a difference between Canadians and Americans and I am sorry if you do not see the difference.

Well so far you have been unable to point out this difference.

The new generation is creating "Canadiana".

Would this be the new generation which doesn't speak English and which has to start its school years in ESL classes?

[Hawk]

I was going to post something, but it appears Argus has things well in hand

GJ dude

[August1991]

Do you presume there aren't a helluva lot of liberal Americans in Texas and Florida and Colorado who vote against right-wing parties? Hey, quick quiz, where was Bill Clinton from?

Argus, I have come to the conclusion that there is a difference between Canadians and Americans and it resides in the fact that Canadians do not have to carry the burden of being American.

Canadians get all of the benefits of being American with none of the responsibilities.

When an American travels abroad, s/he is immediately responsible for Mickey Mouse, Bush Jnr, Wal Mart, McDonald's, Hollywood and so on. The American is seen as a representative of the so-called Dominant Culture. Americans are very much aware of this.

When a Canadian travels abroad, nobody knows anything about us. I once had a chat with some women from Iceland and I realized that this is what foreigners feel when they talk to Canadians.

In this, I feel sorry for ordinary Americans abroad nowadays. They must bear the burden of their country's position in the world. When Mark Twain travelled in the 19th century, he didn't have this problem.

----

English Canadians must understand that the typical Quebec perception of English Canadian is very similar to the typical English Canadian perception of Americans. Quebecers view English Canada as loud-mouthed, dominant, ignorant and "in-your-face". English Canada eats bad food and is obsessed with money.

Americans seem to behave in North America the way Ontarians behave in Canada.

I mention all this to say that stereotypes are foolish.

-----

I admire the United States for its achievement of a successful society of free individuals. Lincoln's address at Gettysburg makes sense to me.

I have no desire to live in the United States and I must agree that it is impossible to eat properly in the United States. (Even salmon on the West Coast is wrong somehow.)

Several on this Forum have suggested that I'm an American apologist. Perhaps I am. But I came to my views of America as a mature person living in northern North America.

Canadians must leave behind their colonial mentality and grow up. Cet esprit de petit peuple né pour un petit pain.

One of my favourite places in English Canada is Newfoundland - the food is truly execrable (boiled everything) but Newfoundlanders have a refreshing view of North America and their place in it.

However, given we have a $92,000,000,000 trade surplus I don't really think we're in any position to whine.

Canada may have a trade surplus with the US but our current account is in balance with the world in general.

And frankly, it matters not at all what account is where. After all, a current account surplus means a capital account deficit. Have you considered that, Argus?

[Cartman]

I was going to post something, but it appears Argus has things well in hand

Argus has made some valid points, I agree. i.e.

Now I'd agree that our political culture is further to the left than the American political culture, mainly for two reasons. One is Quebec, which is far further to the left than English Canada, and the other is religion, which is far more important in the United States than it is in Canada.

But, I believe that NC has made a pretty strong case as well.

I don't believe that mutual interest and cooperation = patriotic feelings or tendencies.

I believe you can believe in another country, admire it, respect it, even love it, but I believe in your heart of hearts you can only be truly patriotic to one.

[Black Dog]

Nope. Do you actually think, if we had a nation-wide referendum, that same-sex marriage would pass? Possibly in Quebec. Nowhere else.

Wrong. In Canadian opinion polls, the majority generally favour SSM. Unlike the States.

In any case, we are discussing two distinct cultures here. The only people who say otherwise are those who would rather Canada be more like the U.S. There are deep differences in values and in world views. American culture is rooted in isolationist nationalism and a culture of exceptionalism. Canadians give at least lip service to concepts like internationalism. I would attribute any American-eqsque leanings among Canadians to the steady deluge of American cultural products, as oppossed to some fundamental similarity between us.

Canadian Americanophiles like to make light of "Canadian identityu" as being shallow, since so many Canadians identify themselves as "not American". Truth is, you'd be hard pressed to find another, better definition, given that this country was founded on and borne of oppossition to, the United States.

[Newfie Canadian]

According to a poll reported by CTV, there are diverging views among the populace on at least 2 other issues: religion and the death penalty.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...276/?hub=Canada

[Argus]

Do you presume there aren't a helluva lot of liberal Americans in Texas and Florida and Colorado who vote against right-wing parties? Hey, quick quiz, where was Bill Clinton from?

Argus, I have come to the conclusion that there is a difference between Canadians and Americans and it resides in the fact that Canadians do not have to carry the burden of being American.

Canadians get all of the benefits of being American with none of the responsibilities.

Just what kind of real burden do you imagine it is to be an American? All that nonsense and about Americans being despised abroad while we are welcome is just cliche's. Nor can you use how we are treated abroad as any real evidence of what seperates us here. The "burden of being American"? If such a thing exists there seems an endless line of people who would be delighted to take up that burden.

[Argus]

Nope. Do you actually think, if we had a nation-wide referendum, that same-sex marriage would pass? Possibly in Quebec. Nowhere else.

Wrong. In Canadian opinion polls, the majority generally favour SSM. Unlike the States.

Oh it's that popular in Canada, is it? Perhaps you could give us a cite or two on all these popularity polls.

American culture is rooted in isolationist nationalism and a culture of exceptionalism. Canadians give at least lip service to concepts like internationalism.

Would you like to explain that in plain English? I loaned out my English/Buzzword dictionary.

There are very few real differences between the wants, desires and hopes and aspirations of mainstream Canadians and mainstream Americans. Let me give you an excellent example; health care.

Some of the so-called nationalists would have it that this shows how caring Canadians are and how selfish Americans are. In fact, if you really talked to the average American and the average Canadian you'd find they both wanted exactly the same things in health care; top notch service for everyone at a reasonablly affordable rate.

Now Americans have unfortunately been brainwashed into thinking that only private industry can deliver this, and that government operated health care is "socialist" and will inevitably reduce their choices and the quality of health care.

Meanwhile, Canadians have unfortunately been brainwashed into thinking that only government can deliver this, adn that privately operated health care is "two tier" and will inevitably reduce their choices and the quality of health care.

They are both wrong, of course, nothing but pawns in the hands of the greedy ideologues in the US and the stupid ideologues in Canada. Neither approves of their health care. Both want their health care systems reformed, and yet neither can seem to find anyone willing to do it.

But essentially they want the same thing; for them and their family and their neighbours to be able to get good medical treatment.

[Black Dog]

Oh it's that popular in Canada, is it? Perhaps you could give us a cite or two on all these popularity polls.

Environics.

The new survey was conducted by Environics Research between April 5 and 24, 2001, and is based on a sample of 2,035 adult Canadians. A poll of this size has a margin of error of 2.2 percent, 19 times out of 20.

The survey shows that over half of Canadians (55%) either strongly (29%) or somewhat (26%) support allowing gay and lesbian couples to marry. Four in ten Canadians (41%) strongly (30%) or somewhat (11%) oppose this. Four percent have no opinion.

Leger Marketing

A majority of Canadians would give homosexuals the following rights: access to same-sex marriages, the right to adopt children and access to the same tax benefits as heterosexual couples.

Access to marriage: 65.4%

Pollara

The Pollara survey, taken for Rogers Media, shows that if a direct vote by all Canadians were held regarding same-sex marriage, 52% would allow gay couples to officially marry and to register their marriage with their province like other couples. Four-in-ten (41%) would vote no to such a proposition, while seven percent are undecided.

[Choke]

If that environics poll is right, then it shouldn't take more than a couple decades for things to swing back the other way, if the Conservatives can mount a really good PR campaign.

[Argus]

Oh it's that popular in Canada, is it? Perhaps you could give us a cite or two on all these popularity polls.

Environics.

Hmm, a whopping 55% support, huh? And wait, Quebecers support same-sex marriage by 69%, throwing off the survey numbers! Gee, isn't this just about what I said? Same sex would pass in Quebec, but probably nowhere else. Also remember that support for gay marriage is highest among young people - who don't bother to vote, and opposition is highest among older folk - who do vote.

So, once again, I am right. You may bow low and apologise now.

[Argus]

Pollara

Hey, doggie, was this what you wanted me to see?

http://www.pollara.ca/new/POLLARA_NET.html

[Black Dog]

Hmm, a whopping 55% support, huh? And wait, Quebecers support same-sex marriage by 69%, throwing off the survey numbers! Gee, isn't this just about what I said? Same sex would pass in Quebec, but probably nowhere else. Also remember that support for gay marriage is highest among young people - who don't bother to vote, and opposition is highest among older folk - who do vote.

Great so all we have to do is wait for the dinosaurs to die off.

So, once again, I am right. You may bow low and apologise now

Let's see:

In Canadian opinion polls, the majority generally favour SSM

Perhaps you could give us a cite or two on all these popularity polls.

I did. A majority of Cnadians support same sex marriage. You can quibble over the breakdown, or the demographics to your black heart's content, but the fact remains: you are wrong.

You'd think you'd get tired of being so very wrong so very often. But you just keep coming back.

[Argus]

Hmm, a whopping 55% support, huh? And wait, Quebecers support same-sex marriage by 69%, throwing off the survey numbers! Gee, isn't this just about what I said? Same sex would pass in Quebec, but probably nowhere else. Also remember that support for gay marriage is highest among young people - who don't bother to vote, and opposition is highest among older folk - who do vote.

Great so all we have to do is wait for the dinosaurs to die off.

Now where have I heard that before - oh yeah, back when the boomers were in their teens and twenties. But guess what!? They grew up to be the same as their parents! All that free love nonsense was tossed out the window. All that brotherly love turned into the "me decade". And demands for less taxes.

I did. A majority of Cnadians support same sex marriage. You can quibble over  the breakdown, or the demographics  to your black heart's content, but the fact remains: you are wrong.

What was I wrong about? I didn't say the majority were against same-sex marriage. I said that referendums held on same-sex marriage would probably pass nowhere in Canada except Quebec. You may bow low now.

[Black Dog]

What was I wrong about? I didn't say the majority were against same-sex marriage. I said that referendums held on same-sex marriage would probably pass nowhere in Canada except Quebec. 

Support is also stronger in Quebec (69%), and in British Columbia (60%). Support is weakest in Saskatchewan and Alberta (43% each). In Ontario, support is just below the national average at 50 percent.

So Quebec, BC for sure. And everywhere else except Alberta and Sakatchewan.

Oh and my personal fave:

Opposition is concentrated among those over the age of 60 and those with less than a high school education.

Good company you keep.

You may bow low now.

I'm flattered and, sure, maybe a little curious, but I'm afraid I just don't swing that way.

[Cartman]

You may bow low now.

I'm flattered and, sure, maybe a little curious, but I'm afraid I just don't swing that way.

Argus logged off pretty quickly after this post was created Black Dog so, I don't know, maybe you misunderstood the uhhmm er uh ... offer as it were?

[Argus]

What was I wrong about? I didn't say the majority were against same-sex marriage. I said that referendums held on same-sex marriage would probably pass nowhere in Canada except Quebec. 

Support is also stronger in Quebec (69%), and in British Columbia (60%). Support is weakest in Saskatchewan and Alberta (43% each). In Ontario, support is just below the national average at 50 percent.

So Quebec, BC for sure. And everywhere else except Alberta and Sakatchewan.

Uh, not quite. First of all, support for gay marriage is soft. I know plenty of people who say "Yeah, sure, why not" about gay marriage, but only one who is strongly supportive and he's gay. On the other hand, the religious types are very strongly opposed. So how many people are going to go out and vote in favour as opposed to those against? Then you have to take into account that support is strongest, by far, among those in their teens and twenties. This group is of no real importance as they're too lazy to ever vote. The strongest opposition is from older folks, the ones who always vote.

So the vote might carry in Quebec. It probably won't carry anywhere else, including BC. All those laid back wastral twentysomethings will be too busy playing video games. All those conservative asians and Indians, not to mention the seniors, will be marching off to the polls. The vote would have no chance in Ontario or anywhere else.

You may bow low now.

I'm flattered and, sure, maybe a little curious, but I'm afraid I just don't swing that way.

Hmm, a little sneering innuendo that I might be (gasp) "a faggot"? Why... how unenlightened of you, how politically incorrect. Why would you consider it insulting to imply I might be gay?

[August1991]

The "burden of being American"? If such a thing exists there seems an endless line of people who would be delighted to take up that burden.

Argus, the "burden" I was referring to concerned all the prior knowledge people around the world have about America and the US. In Canada, we know all about them and they know nothing about us.

A Canadian walks into a random encounter as an unknown entity. An American walks into the same encounter bearing the weight of the foreigner's prejudices.

Those prejudices are frequently wrong about America and most certainly wrong about the individual American.

There are very few real differences between the wants, desires and hopes and aspirations of mainstream Canadians and mainstream Americans. Let me give you an excellent example; health care.

....

But essentially they want the same thing; for them and their family and their neighbours to be able to get good medical treatment.

Boy, that reall advances us alot here. Chinese, Russians, Germans, South Africans and people in Ouagadougou probably also want "good medical treatment". It is how people want to get this medical treatment where the question becomes interesting.

You ascribe the differences in Canada and the US to ideologues who seem to have hypnotic, voodoo powers over people's opinions.

Hmm, a whopping 55% support, huh? And wait, Quebecers support same-sex marriage by 69%, throwing off the survey numbers! Gee, isn't this just about what I said? Same sex would pass in Quebec, but probably nowhere else. Also remember that support for gay marriage is highest among young people - who don't bother to vote, and opposition is highest among older folk - who do vote.

The question in Canadian polls concerned same sex marriage.

I do not have at hand Canadian polls on the issue of gay civil unions. The point is largely academic since these are now accepted almost everywhere in Canada. Gays have all the rights of marriage - the debate in Canada concerns the word "marriage" itself.

Now, compare that situation to the US where 11 states held referenda on gay civil unions (not same sex marriage) and all 11 rejected the proposal.

American culture is rooted in isolationist nationalism and a culture of exceptionalism. Canadians give at least lip service to concepts like internationalism.

Would you like to explain that in plain English? I loaned out my English/Buzzword dictionary.

Brilliant!

Truth is, you'd be hard pressed to find another, better definition, given that this country was founded on and borne of oppossition to, the United States.

I think you are profoundly wrong, BD.

Let me state once again that I would prefer if Canadians had a mature approach to the US. IME, I have found Newfoundlanders and perhaps also rural Quebecers to have the most refreshing attitude to Americans. But I have met many Canadians elsewhere who take America for what it is and individual Americans for what they are.

[caesar]

And you are also implying that, in Canada, to be patriotic, you must be "anti-American". (I have always found this idea to be truly pathetic: Canada is defined by what it is not.)

One does not need to be "anti-American" but we should do things our way without any pressure from foreigners such as the USA and its recent bullying antics. Tell me Argus; when is the last time you have sided with a Canadian decision over an opposing American one.

You only look at everything from their viewpoint including pre emptive strikes to trade issues. open minded or brainwashed ???????

[Argus]

And you are also implying that, in Canada, to be patriotic, you must be "anti-American". (I have always found this idea to be truly pathetic: Canada is defined by what it is not.)

One does not need to be "anti-American" but we should do things our way without any pressure from foreigners such as the USA and its recent bullying antics. Tell me Argus; when is the last time you have sided with a Canadian decision over an opposing American one.

You only look at everything from their viewpoint including pre emptive strikes to trade issues. open minded or brainwashed ???????

First of all, stop using so many punctuation marks. It looks silly.

Second, nobody lives life without having to bow to outside pressures, be they family, friends, society or employers. Nations do not exist in a vacuum either. There are pressures on all of them, including us, and they have to be taken into consideration.

Third, I have many issues with US domestic and foreign policy and am no fan of George Bush. I think the softwood lumber dispute was born of political lobbying not justice, and is harmful to both the US and Canada. Mad Cow, on the other hand, and the length of the ban was partly our fault for stubbornly refusing to test every cow, which could have been done at a comparably tiny cost. On international issues the US is generally more honest than Canada, which talks nobly but acts purely out of self interest, just as the US does. On the other hand, US foreign policy is far too captive to Israel.