Big Guy Posted February 1, 2016 Report Posted February 1, 2016 What is going on behind closed doors in our military? There have been numerous complaints over the years as to sexual misconduct, harassment and intimidation of females in our military. Every few years somebody new is promoted and promises to clean up the problems - only to see them continue: http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/progress-report-sexual-misconduct-investigations-1.3428532 What is in the nature of soldiering that macho behavior should equate with sexual intimidation? It is estimated that the reported cases represent only a small number of cases. Is the old boy network still that strong that "boys will be boys" and a wink is the response to blatant sexism? Time to promote more females into position of authority in our forces and more transparency in the results of the investigations. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Army Guy Posted February 2, 2016 Report Posted February 2, 2016 Well big guy you are sure good and jumping to conclusions..... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
On Guard for Thee Posted February 2, 2016 Report Posted February 2, 2016 I suspect what has been uncovered so far is just the tip of the ice burgh. Quote
Army Guy Posted February 2, 2016 Report Posted February 2, 2016 There is a new process in place and the CDS has made a commitment to clean it up....it does not happen over night....so before you ripe it apart, give it a chance to work.... This talk of old boys club is not just a military issue, in fact it spans the entire country....every industry, corporation, work place....but once again we have to point fingers at someone.....and this time the military was a standing target.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
On Guard for Thee Posted February 2, 2016 Report Posted February 2, 2016 There is a new process in place and the CDS has made a commitment to clean it up....it does not happen over night....so before you ripe it apart, give it a chance to work.... This talk of old boys club is not just a military issue, in fact it spans the entire country....every industry, corporation, work place....but once again we have to point fingers at someone.....and this time the military was a standing target.... The military seems to be a bit of a boiling point. Probably because of the macho attitude, and the lack of ability to report without repercussion. Take solace if you can that it is similar in the US military. Quote
Army Guy Posted February 2, 2016 Report Posted February 2, 2016 There is when you paint all of it's members as sexual delinquents, ya there is going to be a problem there....and given the job we ask them to do, yes there is going to be a macho attitude.....you have said you have served where you a sexual delinquent yes or no....I have and I no for a fact that I am not one either.....such much for that theory.... In case you missed the interview....the creation of a new reporting cell, ensures there will be no repercussions....that every report will be investigated and action will be taken..... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
On Guard for Thee Posted February 2, 2016 Report Posted February 2, 2016 There is when you paint all of it's members as sexual delinquents, ya there is going to be a problem there....and given the job we ask them to do, yes there is going to be a macho attitude.....you have said you have served where you a sexual delinquent yes or no....I have and I no for a fact that I am not one either.....such much for that theory.... In case you missed the interview....the creation of a new reporting cell, ensures there will be no repercussions....that every report will be investigated and action will be taken..... Well perhaps that will help mitigate the problem. Let's hope so. Quote
Army Guy Posted February 2, 2016 Report Posted February 2, 2016 I hope so to, I also hope that it carry's across the nation to other depts. and industries... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Big Guy Posted February 2, 2016 Author Report Posted February 2, 2016 The scope and depth of the sexual assault problem first came to light in 1998, when Maclean's magazine broke the story. Individual cases continued to be reported. The issue became a national focus again when MacLean's magazine published another exposé exploring the extent of rape culture in Canada's military. The military was still allowed to police its own issues. Canada’s top military officer refused to promise to enact the main recommendation in a hard-hitting report, namely the creation of a fully independent agency to receive complaints of inappropriate sexual conduct and offer support to victims of assault and harassment. The United States, Australia and European countries such as France have already created organizations that are outside of the chain of command to deal with the reluctance of victims to come forward with complaints to their superiors. The most recent report on progress can be found at: http://www.forces.gc.ca/sites/FORCES_Internet/caf-community-support-services/sexual-misconduct-progress-report.page This will continue to be a problem until the Canadian military creates a non-military civilian reporting process for members who would guarantee anonymity of victim until/if action is necessary. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Army Guy Posted February 3, 2016 Report Posted February 3, 2016 It already has that in place and has for along time....any military member can report these type of crimes directly to the RCMP....who will look after investigating, laying of charges etc etc...just like regular citizens in Canada do... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted February 3, 2016 Report Posted February 3, 2016 Vance said the centre's creation was significant in that it offered those who have faced misconduct an additional option — beyond the existing chain of command — to report incidents and find support. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Big Guy Posted February 3, 2016 Author Report Posted February 3, 2016 None of this reporting should follow the chain of command. And to trust the RCMP - this organization which has admitted that it has own major sexual harassment problems - is supposed to solve this problem? An arms length, civilian organization with accountability only to parliament and the populace is the only believable alternative. This is the only way to guarantee anonymity if desired and accountability for chain of command decisions. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
PIK Posted February 3, 2016 Report Posted February 3, 2016 Are women allowed on subs yet. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
Army Guy Posted February 15, 2016 Report Posted February 15, 2016 None of this reporting should follow the chain of command. And to trust the RCMP - this organization which has admitted that it has own major sexual harassment problems - is supposed to solve this problem? An arms length, civilian organization with accountability only to parliament and the populace is the only believable alternative. This is the only way to guarantee anonymity if desired and accountability for chain of command decisions. Come on Big guy, lets make some sense here, how do you not report this to chain of command, after all they are the first links in the employer chain. So lets just say you have a female employee, how has gone through a sexual incident, be it rape, or harassment etc....how does one explain the changes in this employee such as attitude, emotional, job performance, constant trips to see medical, or mental health pers....or do we just try to forget that link....how does the boss evaluate/ treat said employee without knowing some of the story behind it....While they do not have to know everything they do need to have the outline, it is common sense..... DID you just say that the RCMP are not to be trusted because they have some of the same issues....If we can't trust the police, our national police force I might add , then this country is in sad shape....I wonder where the rest of Canada is suppose to report these type of problems....i'd be curious who do they go to big guy....the post office, a lawyers office , to the hospital....oh wait since it is a criminal act and it is the law...that medical and mental health professionals have to contact the police when it is suspected that the victim was raped, or violent sexual act ....etc etc....After all it is the police that do the investigating in these matters right....they are the ones that actually charge and arrest people for it..... I think maybe you need to think about the issue then post something..... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted February 15, 2016 Report Posted February 15, 2016 Are women allowed on subs yet. I am not aware of any women submariners as of yet, but while I don't have any experience in things navy, I don't think service on a sub is based on gender equality, but rather a cramped ves with little hygiene available on a regular basis...I'm not even aware of any female volunteers.....I don't think the submariner trades as a whole would even attract any female service members.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
WestCanMan Posted February 15, 2016 Report Posted February 15, 2016 The military seems to be a bit of a boiling point. Probably because of the macho attitude, and the lack of ability to report without repercussion. Take solace if you can that it is similar in the US military. You and I have no idea what it's like to be in charge of 100 guys who came from Yugo where they were sifting through the snow to pick up the body parts of small children from the genocides. Guys who would spend days at a time in small groups of 4 or 5 at isolated observation points, an hour away from reinforcements, where they had to go through lines of the opposing sides to get home. Before I knew what PTSD was I knew how much alcohol those guys would drink when they sat down at the bar. They would buy two doubles and order two more ten minutes later, go at that pace for about an hour and then be falling down drunk. The standard of conduct there does get pretty low at times, but life in the military is hard and you can't really just chuck all those guys in jail after their first or second or third mistake after all they've been through. It's 100% unacceptable for men to behave that way, but policing those guys requires superhuman understanding and by definition no one has that. Honestly, if a woman can't handle a bit of sexual misconduct then they surely can't handle picking body parts out of the snow. Here's something you won't find a link for. When the HMCS provider was getting ready to go to the gulf war in '95 it had a mess with 42 women in it. Within the 3 months between finding out they were going and the departure date 17 women got pregnant and were unable to go. They ship was forced to choose between sailing 17 members short or replacing all 42 with crew members who would be new to the boat, and would require specific training and a time period to get accustomed to finding their way around the new boat, get used to their new action stations, etc. It was obviously easier to sail 17 short, but think about how many tried to get pregnant in that time period in order for that many to succeed. I served my country and I find it extremely doubtful that women can serve in a combat role in the army or navy alongside men. Maybe the air force, I don't know. War changes people in ways that laymen like you and I don't understand. Quote If the Cultist Narrative Network/Cultist Broadcasting Corporation gave an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters, leftists would believe everything they typed. "I don't hate American's, I pointed out the literacy rate to Uncle Sam." - LinkSoul "It's just a parable about rocks and trees talking to muslims to help them kill Jews who are trying to hide. It's open to interpretation." - robobigot
Wilber Posted February 15, 2016 Report Posted February 15, 2016 It already has that in place and has for along time....any military member can report these type of crimes directly to the RCMP....who will look after investigating, laying of charges etc etc...just like regular citizens in Canada do... The RCMP that has been unsuccessfully dealing with the same issues for years? Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Army Guy Posted February 15, 2016 Report Posted February 15, 2016 The RCMP that has been unsuccessfully dealing with the same issues for years? Not just the RCMP, Wilber but the entire country has the same issue, sure we can point out various organizations within it, as we expect a higher code of conduct, but these organizations are made up from the general population of our nation. This is a national issue, one that has gone untreated for a long time.....to fix it , it will have to have a national solution.....not just a few from a couple of depts. within the federal government.... While the RCMP may have some issues within the dept , that does not mean they do not do proper investigations of these crimes. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted February 15, 2016 Report Posted February 15, 2016 WestCanMan: I think the macho attitude stems from a coping mechanism, trying to cope with the horrors of war, or fear itself from taking part in combat or it's related operations...and it comes in many forms, the incessant use of course language, the use of physical threats to get people to comply to orders, by it your own soldiers or enemy combatants, becoming cold or unresponsive to things surrounding you, such as the dead, the suffering around you, the conditions around you...the excepting the fact you could die at anytime, and when it gets really bad excepting the fact you are already dead, death no longer scares you , in fact you welcome it, to escape everything.... It also helps in controlling some very powerful emotions such as fear, which if left unchecked can cause total shut down, unable to move, loss of all or some of your senses, loss the ability to think....loss control of your bodily functions....you never can have total control over fear, while you still value your life....it is what keeps a soldier alive, having enough fear to keep you from doing something stupid.... Controlling that basic instinct to flee, which comes when there is to much fear....These are a daily struggle, even veterans have lost this battle at one time, you need to control it every time , and it is exhausting, both physically and mentally.... The macho attitude also comes from someone that's has been there down that, to the point regular everyday choices are nothing more than mundane, although you enjoy life more , you take more risks now, such as extreme sports, to try to get that rush of adrenaline back, it is very addictive.... you also become more confrontational, you are the man.....especially in front of your peers at work....you don't back down from anything.... you don't let things slide like you once did, you adapt the life is to short motto, deal with it quickly, violently and move on....it is what the military has trained us to do, only now that control you once had about separating work with home life is gone.... Today the government is attempting to get rid of the macho attitude, and in typical government run programs they have adapting the extreme left or right side of the choices.....instead of tackling the really problem, they decide to tackle the little problems..... Don't get me wrong I fully agree with, and support the prosecution of Rape, true sexual harassment of all members. there is no place for these in any dept that lives are at risk...., trust,loyality, honor is an important part of doing any job, including where your life is on the line, Policing, fire fighters, EMT techs, soldiers, sailors and airmen....Those found guilty should be removed form those depts , shown the door, never to return.... But that is not exactly what is happening, the terms of Sexual harassment now include any course language that describe a body part, or gender trait....example calling someone guy a P****y because he can't do something is sexual harassment, or another one would be you run like a little like a girl. but not just to the individual your talking to, if anyone hears that conversation and disagrees , they to can claim it to be sexual harassment.... I get it you have to watch what and to whom your talking to....but these charges are career ending....despite what others have said...But it does not end their ....there is the regular harassment charge....here anyone can charge anyone for saying something that might offend them, a simple word as Shit may be offensive to some, while it is common practice for the person being offended to say "stop " that offends me, it is not the hard fact, and charges or complaints can be raised without warning.... Now some of you are saying , there is nothing new here this is been Civilian practice for many years.....and your right.....but this is coming from an organization that " regularly using profane language to drive home a point.....Such as "Charge that F****ing machine gun nest"....instead of gentle men when you have time could you please eliminate that Machine gun nest.......it is part of the culture, it is part of that macho persona....that is part of a coping mech.... there needs to be a balanced government approach....and it needs to be implemented or designed with all sides sitting at the table, not just what some judge that knows very little of the culture thinks is offensive...... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted February 15, 2016 Report Posted February 15, 2016 I just want to add a few things here there has been Female soldiers on the battle field that have done exceptional well, some of them have paid that ultimate price , some have risen through the ranks, in fact it was rumoured that 2 RCR was going to have a female commanding officer, She is an Infantry officer, and those that I have talked to have said she earned every one of her strips.....and was an exceptional officer and soldier..... And while the females in the Armed forces are from a diverse back ground, I have been in combat with many, and would gladly do it all again.....they are as professional as any man I have served with, their roads to success are often a little more rugged than the typical mans.....due to the environment they serve in....The army has always been considered a mans world, with a lot of the old school still thinking females have no place...they however will be gone soon enough..... I've also know many men to go out of their way to skip a deployment, or operation as well....While I do not work in a trade that has many women in it, I have worked with plenty of support trades , and have seen both sides of the fence, they're will always be MIR commando's men or women, that is a fact.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Big Guy Posted February 15, 2016 Author Report Posted February 15, 2016 (edited) ... I think maybe you need to think about the issue then post something..... Thank you for your response. I have thought about it and have not changed my mind. I understand from your views that because of the nature of the job, the military should have different standards for what indictable "sexual harassment" would be than the standard being used for civilians. Please correct me if I am wrong. I do not agree with what i read as your position. As to the RCMP being successful in its dealing with harassment accusations, I suggest that 362 women RCMP members taking the organization to court indicates that a systematic problem exists: http://www.macleans.ca/society/inside-the-rcmps-biggest-crisis/ It is my perception (and only my perception) that you view that the military is doing things right. I would expect that attitude from one loyal to the corps. I hope you accept that there are different standards in the civilian community. As to following the chain of command, how many careers of females in the forces were stunted by following the chain of command? The mere fact of going outside the chain of command will destroy a career. I trust that our military will understand that it is ultimately responsible to civilian authority and create a civilian, at arms length, agency to which victims of sexual harassment can report anonymously and expect an objective investigation of their claims - without fearing the end of their military career. Edited February 15, 2016 by Big Guy Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Rue Posted February 15, 2016 Report Posted February 15, 2016 Army Guy, I do have a bias on this one although I totally agree with your words but I will be honest bout my bias. Israel had of course no choice, it had to draft all women as well as men and still does. In countries where drafting women is a necessity its a lot different than in countries where women were traditionally segregated to non combat duties. Practicality required women to fight or be raped and killed in Israel. It sure created a different cultural approach. Fact is though, women were segregated from men as the army got more organized and conventional because of .sexual tension. Men biologically have an inherent instinct to over protect women and be possessive of them and form intense romantic relationships in times of stress and hostility and this complicates matters in combat situations on the front line. It just is. As well it is a biological fact that men are not capable of hearing a women's voice as they would a man's in situations of intensity and stress.. I respectfully believe it is not a realistic idea to put men and women in the same combat units. I believe women need to be in their own combat units. I am only talking combat on the ground. I admit its a bias. I just don't think men can get over certain primal instincts to protect women which may cause problems in a combat situation That's my opinion. Doesn't mean I don't think women are great soldiers or don't need respect or agree with b.s. behaviour but I think they may be better off in their own units. I know that ain't gonna happen. I over protected females I was with unintentionally and many of them sure as hell were lol stronger than me and did not need it. Its an instinctual thing. Its like they become your sisters or daughters or even worse someone you feel intimate feelings for . Its hard to turn off. Its a new era of politically proper behaviour that is for sure. For me having been in the Middle East I know in the Muslim world, the soldiers in their countries or terrorist cells see women as expendable and inferior. They will be used to carry bombs or smuggle weapons or engage in terror attacks, but they are otherwise considered inferior. They would torture and rape women no problem. It makes soldiers therefore over protect women in units for fear of the added reprecussions. Hope that makes sense. I don't support b.s. behaviour or disrespect but I just don't know how else to explain this personal bias. Quote
Argus Posted February 15, 2016 Report Posted February 15, 2016 The military seems to be a bit of a boiling point. Probably because of the macho attitude, and the lack of ability to report without repercussion. Take solace if you can that it is similar in the US military. Do you think a military without a macho attitude would be very good at fighting? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Army Guy Posted February 15, 2016 Report Posted February 15, 2016 Thank you for your response. I have thought about it and have not changed my mind. I understand from your views that because of the nature of the job, the military should have different standards for what indictable "sexual harassment" would be than the standard being used for civilians. Please correct me if I am wrong. I do not agree with what i read as your position. As to the RCMP being successful in its dealing with harassment accusations, I suggest that 362 women RCMP members taking the organization to court indicates that a systematic problem exists: http://www.macleans.ca/society/inside-the-rcmps-biggest-crisis/ It is my perception (and only my perception) that you view that the military is doing things right. I would expect that attitude from one loyal to the corps. I hope you accept that there are different standards in the civilian community. As to following the chain of command, how many careers of females in the forces were stunted by following the chain of command? The mere fact of going outside the chain of command will destroy a career. I trust that our military will understand that it is ultimately responsible to civilian authority and create a civilian, at arms length, agency to which victims of sexual harassment can report anonymously and expect an objective investigation of their claims - without fearing the end of their military career. Not sure where the problem is Big Guy, the military already is held to two different standards, and always has been hence Military and civilian laws, which more the most part hold members to higher standards in conduct, performance, physical fitness, and also covers things like unlimited liability, meaning you may be told to do things that will take your life. So there is already an established 2 tier system....in most cases these rules, and regulations are meant to keep that higher standard.... I have already clearly stated that I agree with the general outline of both laws, both military and civil laws, Rape is a federal offense, and should be investigated relentlessly, if the accused is military they should be tried in a civilian court, which is happening and has always happened....if found guilty member should be released from forces...which does not always happen, but things are changing under the new CDS.... Sexual harassment, is the one I have a issue with, I agree is a member is being sexually harassed by another member it should be fully investigated, and if found guilty member and given jail sentence, member should be released, if not given a sentence then should have military discipline action as well..... But where I draw the line is here, the use of course language, major rule changes within the military are ongoing, and the use of course language is no longer tolerated, and can be a career ending incident.....now I was not born yesterday, course language is now more common in our society than it ever was....just look at prime time TV for examples, or video games, or listen to conversations at the local timmies.....the F bomb is flying around like there is no tomorrow.....and yet these people, civilians people are subjected to the same laws, I have not heard of anyone losing their jobs over a conversation at timmies, or local bar, or at home.....there may have been warnings given, but I have not heard of any one losing a job or ending a career over it....and yet this is what is happening.....within DND now.....the first couple of instances were charges, ending up with pay deductions.....next where recorded warnings which stay on file forever and a day.....after that other administrative actions are taken..... Now I not talking about sexual harassment, i'm talking about course language ....which is hidden in the term Sexual harassment, and so broad that it has in the definition, anything an individual believes to be harassment.....that is a large paint brush.....Now while this may all be part of the attack on getting rid of sexual harassment in the work place , for which i fully support....but they are dragging in more than that.....to comply with that female judge that first brought all this to DND's attention, because she attended a military Exercise, and was offended by some of the language used during simulated attacks.... DND is being held to a higher standard, while the civil laws are on the books they are rarely upheld....now I could be wrong, but has the civil work places ever deducted pay for swearing, or brought to any court for use of foul language..... Now while I may have a potty mouth while on military operations and exercises, most military members are complete ladies or gentlemen when it comes to dealing with outside military organizations or off hours.....I have never used course language when dealing with the outside world...nor have I degraded a man or women in uniform.... You continually attack a few governmental departments on they're handling of harassment issues....and while I agree with most of what you say, I have said time after time, that these issues are not limited to those 2 departments, but rather a National issue......there has been no talk other inistutions such as our higher education areas, high schools , universities, collages. which have far worse records per capita than most anything....these are where our kids go ....but for some reason, we are fixated on the Military and RCMP..... RCMP do have issues with harassment, but do you have proof that these issues effect their investigation/ bringing to justice/ prosecution of sexual related crimes, maybe i'm wrong but are you suggesting yet another civilian organization handles these type of cases, because our police force is inept ? The CDS new program has created a new agency that reports not only to DND but also to civil authorities....remaining anonymous is not an option, the Chain of Command still needs to account for this persons time, it is also held accountable for it's actions, for instance keeping the victim employed in the same environment would be a bad choice, it would have to remove someone, victim or accused...., there are medical or health issues that come into play, counselling appointments that would need to be arranged or attended....SO DND would need to know what the issue is, to take action.... we need to let the new CDS plan take effect, before we slam it....or take it apart... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Big Guy Posted February 15, 2016 Author Report Posted February 15, 2016 I guess we will continue to disagree. As for profanities, I can speak for our education system. No kind of profanity is accepted for staff/student, staff/staff nor student/student (when overheard) communications. I myself have suspended coaches who, during the course of a close and contested football or basketball game, have forgotten that they are still representing their school and what language is acceptable and which is not in the academic arena. There are arms distance, anonymous sexual harassment reporting opportunities for both staff and students in any system in which I have been involved. I have found that in the school systems, xenophobic and homophobic comments are more common complaints than those of sexual harassment - and they are all addressed. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
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