Kevin O'Leary will invest $1 million if Notley quits.

[On Guard for Thee]

Agreed, but that's how some Canadians define and understand what is going on in their own country...comparisons to foreign political and pop culture personalities. I guess domestic figures just don't work for them.

Ones that resemble the likes of the Donald certainly don't. Especially when you throw in the screeching idiocy of Pallin. But we like having a giggle at y'all.

[Topaz]

IF O'Leary wants to be PM, then he has to start from the bottom and work his way up and not buy his way into the PMO. Canadians should be able to see him in action on the floor of the House of Commons and if the Conservative let him run, then they are more desperate for a leader, then I thought!

[jacee]

I agree with taxation. By definition, I fall into the top 1%

by income?

That's misleading ... it's the wealthiest I refer to - those who have the biggest hoard of wealth - top .01%

Calling people the '1%' based on income was a distraction inserted by the wealthiest via the media (they own) ... to deflect attention away from their hoard of wealth.

and I have had countless schemes brought forth to me where I could avoid paying taxes and I refuse them all mostly because I do feel its my duty to contribute to society.

Good for you.

The wealth hoarders have no such conscience.

With that said, how much is enough. When I get taxed I pay a LOT more than the average person. When it comes to equitable taxation, shouldn't we all contribute the same? Or do you believe we we should all make the same net money

No. That's ridiculous.

Another attempt to deflect.

and have some pay more in taxes. This was brought up in an other equitable tax thread so I suppose it doesn't belong here.

The key thing to remember is that the equation for taxation is not always direct. When a jurisdiction lowers its taxes for various people or corporations its most often because that jurisdiction is now able to collect in other areas because that corporation is doing is operating there. Today's taxation is all about being competitive with other jurisdictions whether its a municipality, province or country. These corporations evaluate the full scope of doing business and will pick and choose the location that makes them the most profitable. As such each jurisdiction competes by lowering various taxes which draws them into their area which also brings taxation from income, property tax, and in some cases royalties. Yes....the give up some on the corporate tax side but in the end its to get more on the whole.

We can't control how other countries are taxing but I do think our local jurisdictions (municipalities/provinces) would be helping themselves if they didn't keep cutting each others throats on taxes. You look back at Alberta in the 80s and 90s and their taxes were higher than Notley's today, however they were lower than Sask and BC. Those two started driving down their taxes in the 2000s which forced Alberta to lower again. If the provinces could agree to keep a base tax rate then they would be able to have these companies pay the higher rates with out risk of losing them....that is of course assuming they wouldn't move internationally (which most can and do)

Pay what is owing, no hiding and hoarding wealth out of country.

Interesting question: Should Kevin O'Leary be allowed to run the country if he's stashing wealth to avoid taxes?

Was Paul Martin doing that as suggested above?

Politicians should come under a lot of scrutiny for that.

.

Edited January 21, 2016 by jacee

[Accountability Now]

The wealth hoarders have no such conscience.

Really? You want to paint them all with that brush? Have you ever heard of the Giving Pledge?

In June 2010 the Giving Pledge campaign was formally announced and Bill Gates and Warren Buffett began recruiting members.^[2] In 2011 Gates and Buffett met with wealthy individuals in India and China and invited them to join the campaign.^{[3][4] [5]} The aggregate wealth of the first 40 pledgers was $125 billion as of August 2010.^[6] As of April 2011, 69 billionaires had joined the campaign and given a pledge.^[7] In 2012 Forbes reported that 11 additional individuals or couples had joined the Giving Pledge.^[8] In April, The Huffington Post reported that a total of "81 billionaires [had] committed to giving at least half of their fortunes to charity" via the campaign.^[9] The German technology entrepreneur, Hasso Plattner, joined the Giving Pledge in 2013^[10] and 141 individuals and/or couples were listed as pledgers on the official website by December 2015.^[11] Other signatories of the pledge include: David Rockefeller,^[12]Azim Premji,^[13] Richard Branson,^[14] Tim Cook,^[15] and Sara Blakely.^[16]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Giving_Pledge

Some pretty big hoarders on that list jacee.

No. That's ridiculous.

Another attempt to deflect.

Great come back jacee. How about you provide some reason as to why its ridiculous. You are OK with equality until I show you what equality actually means. Even at a flat rate tax I pay a heck of a lot more in taxes than the average joe even though I am getting the same services as everyone else. And you know what....I'm ok with that. But when people like you come shouting about equality and how I should be paying MORE taxes then I get a little peeved. Equality means equality jacee...so if I'm getting equal services then why should I pay way more in tax. If you don't agree with that then don't come shouting EQUALITY!!!!

Pay what is owing, no hiding and hoarding wealth out of country.

That's the point that you're missing. Most of the wealthy do pay whats owing. They pay according to the rules that the governments have laid out. It is not illegal to move your money off shore or to other countries as long as you do it legally. These people however will take advantage of the loop holes and what the rules say to minimize their tax according to said rules. This is why CRA is constantly revamping the rules to ensure tax fairness. Having said that, if taxes get too high in a certain jurisdiction then a company will restructure and have move the taxable income to a lower taxed area only paying a withholding tax of 5 or 10% in the first country. This alone is why governments need to ensure tax fairness so they can entice companies to have the final income declared here.

Ultimately tax evasion is illegal however tax efficiency and loopholes are not.

Interesting question: Should Kevin O'Leary be allowed to run the country if he's stashing wealth to avoid taxes?

Was Paul Martin doing that as suggested above?

Politicians should come under a lot of scrutiny for that.

.

If Kevin O'Leary is breaking the law by evading taxes then he should be charged for it and at that point made illegible to run the country. But what evidence do you have that he is breaking the law? How do you know that he is not minimizing his taxes according to the current rules in place? Please provide any evidence that this true and I would gladly say he is not eligible to run. With that said, I certainly don't want him to run either but not based on the reasons you are suggesting.

As for Paul Martin or Trudeau or Harper or any wealthy person in Canada. They have all minimized their taxes. There is nothing wrong with that as long as its done legally. And politicians should only come under scrutiny if they are breaking the law.

[jacee]

Really? You want to paint them all with that brush? Have you ever heard of the Giving Pledge?

Some pretty big hoarders on that list jacee.

I refer to 'hoarders' who hide their money in offshore 'tax havens', and illegally fail to declare the income, in order to evade Canadian income taxes.

Is that clearer?

Great come back jacee. How about you provide some reason as to why its ridiculous. You are OK with equality until I show you what equality actually means. Even at a flat rate tax I pay a heck of a lot more in taxes than the average joe even though I am getting the same services as everyone else. And you know what....I'm ok with that. But when people like you come shouting about equality and how I should be paying MORE taxes then I get a little peeved. Equality means equality jacee...so if I'm getting equal services then why should I pay way more in tax. If you don't agree with that then don't come shouting EQUALITY!!!!

Another comprehension issue? Nobody ever said everyone should make the same amount of money. That's your ridiculous red herring.

I already explained my issue: Wealth and power of the super rich ... many of whom are criminal tax evaders.

And even without their undeclared income, the data we have on the super rich clearly shows that their share of the total wealth keeps increasing.

That means less and less and less all the time for the other 99.99% of us.

How long can that go on?

Until they have it all?

Stashed offshore?

Failing to declare?

Paying no taxes?

Think about it...

That's the point that you're missing. Most of the wealthy do pay whats owing. They pay according to the rules that the governments have laid out. It is not illegal to move your money off shore or to other countries as long as you do it legally. These people however will take advantage of the loop holes and what the rules say to minimize their tax according to said rules. This is why CRA is constantly revamping the rules to ensure tax fairness. Having said that, if taxes get too high in a certain jurisdiction then a company will restructure and have move the taxable income to a lower taxed area only paying a withholding tax of 5 or 10% in the first country. This alone is why governments need to ensure tax fairness so they can entice companies to have the final income declared here.

Ultimately tax evasion is illegal however tax efficiency and loopholes are not.

Agreed ... though many loopholes need closing.

However, I have, if you read carefully enough to comprehend, focussed solely on the super rich who illegally fail to declare income and thus evade taxes illegally.

That bit alone would help a lot toward services and benefits for the rest of us.

If Kevin O'Leary is breaking the law by evading taxes then he should be charged for it and at that point made illegible to run the country.

[ineligible?]

But what evidence do you have that he is breaking the law? How do you know that he is not minimizing his taxes according to the current rules in place? Please provide any evidence that this true and I would gladly say he is not eligible to run. With that said, I certainly don't want him to run either but not based on the reasons you are suggesting.

As for Paul Martin or Trudeau or Harper or any wealthy person in Canada. They have all minimized their taxes. There is nothing wrong with that as long as its done legally. And politicians should only come under scrutiny if they are breaking the law.

Yes ... again for your clear comprehension ... I refer only to those operating outside the law.

Anyone doing that, should definitely be ineligible to run for office.

That would include Kevin O'Leary, IF he is a tax evader.

Got it now?

We seem to be in full agreement.

.

[Accountability Now]

I refer to 'hoarders' who hide their money in offshore 'tax havens', and illegally fail to declare the income, in order to evade Canadian income taxes.

Is that clearer?

However, I have, if you read carefully enough to comprehend, focussed solely on the super rich who illegally fail to declare income and thus evade taxes illegally..

Alright....lets recap:

- you posted a link to an article discussing how 62 people in the world have more wealth than half the worlds population

- in that article it states that all of these people are from outside of Canada but yet you CLEARLY above are concerned about THESE 62 people avoiding Canadian Income Tax even though they owe nothing to Canada

- only one person (persons) in Canada are in the top 62 wealthiest people according to Forbes and that is the David Thompson family. So can you prove that this ONE super rich guy is using tax havens. Please provide that proof at your earliest convenience.

- in this said link it states that massive amounts of money are in these tax havens which it doesn't state but does imply that these 62 people are using tax havens even though it (or you) offer ZERO proof of it and yet you still insist that you are ONLY talking about the super rich

- you then posted a link to Argus talking about how the super rich in Canada are skipping out on taxes through tax havens even though it mentions no names or the number of 'super rich' that are actually doing it. Instead it simply illustrates how 'easy' it would be to do it.

So in summary, you continue to talk about the super rich as the top 0.01% even though in Canada being in the top 0.01% only means you're making about 2.5million per year. I know that you are not saying that ALL of the people in Canada who make over 2.5M are using illegal tax havens and evading taxes.....are you? No.....you wouldn't brush a stroke that broad....would you? You have said you are talking ONLY about those 0.01% that break the law....well how many of the 0.01% do that? The only thing leading you to believe that is because 'they keep getting richer'. Is it possible they keep making good business decisions. They keep investing their money. They keep doing the things that made them rich in the first place? Noooooo....they are all crooks. Especially the ones that I noted in the Giving Pledge which has 3 of the top 5 richest people in the World to giving over half their wealth away. Such crooks.

Of course its tough to comprehend what you are saying jacee because you don't even know what you are saying. How do you expect others to?

Again...please show me verifiable facts of how many of the top 0.01% are actually using tax havens. So far the only link you provided are talking about the 62 richest people in the world (which is only 1 Canadian) and an article explaining how easy it is to use off shore accounts if you want.

[jacee]

Alright....lets recap:

- you posted a link to an article discussing how 62 people in the world have more wealth than half the worlds population

- in that article it states that all of these people are from outside of Canada but yet you CLEARLY above are concerned about THESE 62 people avoiding Canadian Income Tax even though they owe nothing to Canada

- only one person (persons) in Canada are in the top 62 wealthiest people according to Forbes and that is the David Thompson family. So can you prove that this ONE super rich guy is using tax havens. Please provide that proof at your earliest convenience.

- in this said link it states that massive amounts of money are in these tax havens which it doesn't state but does imply that these 62 people are using tax havens even though it (or you) offer ZERO proof of it and yet you still insist that you are ONLY talking about the super rich

- you then posted a link to Argus talking about how the super rich in Canada are skipping out on taxes through tax havens even though it mentions no names or the number of 'super rich' that are actually doing it. Instead it simply illustrates how 'easy' it would be to do it.

So in summary, you continue to talk about the super rich as the top 0.01% even though in Canada being in the top 0.01% only means you're making about 2.5million per year. I know that you are not saying that ALL of the people in Canada who make over 2.5M are using illegal tax havens and evading taxes.....are you? No.....you wouldn't brush a stroke that broad....would you? You have said you are talking ONLY about those 0.01% that break the law....well how many of the 0.01% do that? The only thing leading you to believe that is because 'they keep getting richer'. Is it possible they keep making good business decisions. They keep investing their money. They keep doing the things that made them rich in the first place? Noooooo....they are all crooks. Especially the ones that I noted in the Giving Pledge which has 3 of the top 5 richest people in the World to giving over half their wealth away. Such crooks.

Of course its tough to comprehend what you are saying jacee because you don't even know what you are saying. How do you expect others to?

Again...please show me verifiable facts of how many of the top 0.01% are actually using tax havens. So far the only link you provided are talking about the 62 richest people in the world (which is only 1 Canadian) and an article explaining how easy it is to use off shore accounts if you want.

You missed another significant point:

I am referring to top wealth holders, not income.

Now answer my question:

Since the super rich top wealth holders keep acquiring a bigger share of the wealth all the time, where does that leave the rest of us?

Fighting each other over their scraps?

How do we stop the trickle up?

.

Edited January 22, 2016 by jacee

[Accountability Now]

You missed another significant point:

I am referring to top wealth holders, not income.

LMAO!. No...no I did not. I specifically went after your link which discusses the 62 top wealth holders and noted that only ONE Canadian would even make that list. I also asked you to provide proof that any of these wealth holders have anything to do with illegal off shore accounts. And what have you provided....nothing.

I also like how you completely ignore the fact that I have offered up the Giving Pledge, not once but twice, which is a growing movement among these TOP WEALTH HOLDERS to donate over half of their wealth to charity during their life or upon their death. And I missed the point? Just because I showed your point is wrong from both wealth holders and income earners does not mean I missed anything.

Now answer my question:

Since the super rich top wealth holders keep acquiring a bigger share of the wealth all the time, where does that leave the rest of us?

Fighting each other over their scraps?

How do we stop the trickle up?

.

Who is fighting for scraps? Canada has the one of the wealthiest middle classes in the world. I could also cite a number of articles showing that the poor are also getting richer although I don't think you would care to read them. I'm sure there are still poor people out there and there always will be but I will confidently say that these people are NOT poor just because Bill Gates is rich. Their situation in life has mostly to do with THEIR situation.

I have also showed you an example of the Giving Pledge where these super rich people are giving away massive amounts of their wealth. Look at the list of people. http://givingpledge.org/

I think its fairly obvious. These people realize they don't need this money and are giving it back. So for the most part a mechanism to redistribute wealth is already in place. However for the other billionaires out there who want to take their money with them then I would suggest increasing the estate tax or making it more difficult to transfer your hoard down the family line without paying a tax on it.

With all this said, the part I find most hypocritical about your stance on this is that you are so concerned about these super rich people hoarding money which should be taxed and should benefit the poor, yet you turn a blind eye to the fact that native chiefs are doing the same thing on a smaller scale. You show opposition to the First Nations Transparency Act yet you want mechanisms in place to stop trickle up in the rest of the world. Why is that? To me they are one in the same.

[jacee]

LMAO!. No...no I did not. I specifically went after your link which discusses the 62 top wealth holders and noted that only ONE Canadian would even make that list. I also asked you to provide proof that any of these wealth holders have anything to do with illegal off shore accounts. And what have you provided....nothing.

Are you suggesting that wealthy Canadians don't stash money offshore to evade taxes? ?

I also like how you completely ignore the fact that I have offered up the Giving Pledge, not once but twice, which is a growing movement among these TOP WEALTH HOLDERS to donate over half of their wealth to charity during their life or upon their death. And I missed the point? Just because I showed your point is wrong from both wealth holders and income earners does not mean I missed anything.

How nice of them.

Good tax write off too.

Is that 'a mechanism' they are all required to use?

Who is fighting for scraps? Canada has the one of the wealthiest middle classes in the world. I could also cite a number of articles showing that the poor are also getting richer although I don't think you would care to read them.

I'll read them.

I'm sure there are still poor people out there and there always will be but I will confidently say that these people are NOT poor just because Bill Gates is rich. Their situation in life has mostly to do with THEIR situation.

The system currently works to make the super rich even richer.

Is that the way it should work in your opinion?

At what point do we cut off the increasing flow of wealth to the rich?

I have also showed you an example of the Giving Pledge where these super rich people are giving away massive amounts of their wealth. Look at the list of people. http://givingpledge.org/

I think its fairly obvious. These people realize they don't need this money and are giving it back. So for the most part a mechanism to redistribute wealth is already in place. However for the other billionaires out there who want to take their money with them then I would suggest increasing the estate tax or making it more difficult to transfer your hoard down the family line without paying a tax on it.

Yup. Making it more difficult for them to stash money out of country to evade Canadian taxes would be good.

With all this said, the part I find most hypocritical about your stance on this is that you are so concerned about these super rich people hoarding money which should be taxed and should benefit the poor, yet you turn a blind eye to the fact that native chiefs are doing the same thing on a smaller scale. You show opposition to the First Nations Transparency Act yet you want mechanisms in place to stop trickle up in the rest of the world. Why is that? To me they are one in the same.

Hardly the same, but I never opposed transparency.

There appear to be some issues with the current Act though.

.

Edited January 23, 2016 by jacee

[Accountability Now]

Are you suggesting that wealthy Canadians don't stash money offshore to evade taxes?

No. I have clearly said that a certain number do. Some do it legally and other illegally with my expectation being that the latter of these two are charged and punished as they are law breakers. The former are using the tax system within its legal means to move their money to locations where they are taxed less. Heck...the big banks in Canada all have locations in the Caymans.

What I am asking of you is to provide proof of how many Canadians are sending their money off shore ILLEGALLY. You have yet to show anything that comes up with a number.

Is that 'a mechanism' they are all required to use?

No its not. They are choosing it because ( and i'm only assuming) they realize that having that much money doesn't matter. They aren't trying to rule the world, for them having that much money is a game. They have far and above met their needs, wants and desires to the rest is useless to them.

I'll read them.

Here's a couple, with the first one focusing only on Canada:

http://business.financialpost.com/fp-comment/poor-getting-richer

http://capx.co/the-rich-are-richer-and-the-poor-are-getting-richer/

The system currently works to make the super rich even richer.

Is that the way it should work in your opinion?

At what point do we cut off the increasing flow of wealth to the rich?

Yup. Making it more difficult for them to stash money out of country to evade Canadian taxes would be good.

If you don't want the rich to get richer....then stop buying Microsoft products from Bill Gates, or stop shopping at Wal Mart or perhaps any other product or store that these uber wealthy people generate their wealth from. The fact is that these people are getting richer because they provide products that are affordable to regular joes who soak them up. So I feel its hypocritical for people to complain about the rich when its you and me supporting them.

Hardly the same, but I never opposed transparency.

There appear to be some issues with the current Act though.

Actually its exactly the same. People in control who are using their power and capabilities to hide money in unlawful manners which ultimately affect the money available for common folk.

The transparency act just allowed people to see if their chiefs were doing it properly. If they were then no problem...just like if a wealthy businessman gets audited and shows that he's acting within the law. In both cases, unlawful activity should be punished.

[cannuck]

If you don't want the rich to get richer....then stop buying Microsoft products from Bill Gates, or stop shopping at Wal Mart or perhaps any other product or store that these uber wealthy people generate their wealth from. The fact is that these people are getting richer because they provide products that are affordable to regular joes who soak them up. So I feel its hypocritical for people to complain about the rich when its you and me supporting them.

Don't stop buying products from Microcrap, stop trading Microcrap stock. Gates does not make his billions from producing product, he made it by quite legally scamming shareholders of their equity (by stock option plans) while Wall Street rewarded his treachery of valuing that stock at 1000x book value. The house can only pay if the suckers will play - and that's you and me, bro. You see, you can NOT make that kind of money by working for it. That is the limit of capitalism. The Street lives by the unlimited rule of profiting from Casino Capitalism - where no wealth is created.

There is a valid point for how and why a very small number of people can become fabulously wealthy to a ridiculous multiple of the wealth of those who are genuinely productive. That doesn't make them criminals, though.

As to stashing wealth illegally offshore: i doubt very much many of the uber-rich do that, as they are way too visible. AND, let's face it: once you have conned the system out of billions, why do you care how much that number is? Heck, you could even give half of it away, and you wouldn't miss it - since you really didn't do very much for it in the first place. In my experience, these very high profile targets would the tax man's dream to take down, but reality is you are far more likely to find noveau riche types trying to stash their cash as they are more likely to remember not having it and are not yet adapted to the idea of never being able to spend what they have.

Edited January 27, 2016 by cannuck

[jacee]

Speculation.

In fact, the increasing flow of wealth to the uber-rich is fact ... and that data is based on the wealth that is reported and can be tracked:

For a brief time postdepression and postwar, the trend reversed. The richest were still very rich, but more of the wealth flowed to the poor and middle class through social benefits, education/opportunity, union strength, etc.

Then the backlash came from the richest, starting in the 1980's, 'austerity', attacks on the poor and rising middle class ... and that continues today.

Follow the trend line ... How long will it be until we are back in the middle ages where 'the Lairds' own everything, 'the serfs' own nothing?

How long will it take with current trends?

Wealth is even more concentrated in the uberrich than income:

http://www.cbpp.org/wealth-is-even-more-concentrated-than-income

Edited January 27, 2016 by jacee

[Topaz]

You do realize that the 1er% pay less taxes because they live off of their investment which are taxed at a less rate, at least, it the USA, I'm not sure about here in Canada, anyone know?

[Accountability Now]

Don't stop buying products from Microcrap, stop trading Microcrap stock. Gates does not make his billions from producing product, he made it by quite legally scamming shareholders of their equity (by stock option plans) while Wall Street rewarded his treachery of valuing that stock at 1000x book value.

So he made a fortune that way however he continues to make $$$ every year as reports show Microsoft at $30-35B in EBITA per year. That's a lot of earning income.

There is a valid point for how and why a very small number of people can become fabulously wealthy to a ridiculous multiple of the wealth of those who are genuinely productive. That doesn't make them criminals, though.

Very true. Add to it the fact that to make money you have to want to make money. This comes with tough decisions at times and the ability to take big risks to get that reward. I know a number of multimillionaires and every single one of their stories starts with a second mortgage or line of credit that would scare the crap out of me. They had the courage to do it, so to them go the rewards.

As to stashing wealth illegally offshore: i doubt very much many of the uber-rich do that, as they are way too visible. AND, let's face it: once you have conned the system out of billions, why do you care how much that number is?

Yup....this is why they are all signing up for the Giving Pledge where they commit to giving over half of their money away to charities.

[Accountability Now]

You do realize that the 1er% pay less taxes because they live off of their investment which are taxed at a less rate, at least, it the USA, I'm not sure about here in Canada, anyone know?

Another common misconception for the lower taxes (at least on the lower end of the 1%) is people forget to take into account the taxes paid by the company before it gets dividended out to the shareholder. The company will pay ~25% tax and then the profits from the company are paid by dividend to the shareholder where he/she will pay another ~10% (province depended) to take it out personally. Most will not take it out personally but will choose to reinvest or let their holding company retain it. In the end people say they only pay 10% tax, however that is not true as they ARE the company and in total they paid roughly the same as a person employed.