The Spoiler-Filled, Spoilerific Star Wars: The Force Awakens Thread

[Derek 2.0]

Silver woman is Gwendolyn Christie, from Game of Thrones. She's about a foot taller than Angelina Jolie, I believe. I find it kind of hard to picture her being somebody who could fight a Jedi or lead Ben Solo to Grandmaster Snoop, as all she accomplished in Episode 7 is getting punched out by a Wookie.

I don't know, the Fett's seemed pretty capable putting up a good fight against Jedi.......maybe Silver Women is related to the Fett's?

Hey, do you guys think Snoop is really 30 feet tall, or does he just have a really big hologram to compensate for other shortcomings?

Never thought about that.......maybe he's a little guy like Yoda.

I heard a crazy theory about Snoop's real identity. Will post later.

-k

Darth Vader? That's what my son thinks........would explain how Ren got his mask.....maybe he didn't die on the Death Star and Luke set him up in a Jedi witness protection program and faked his death

What I want to know is how that little female alien got Luke/Anakin's lightsaber that Luke dropped from the cloud city.......

[TimG]

The movie was entertaining even if the plot was essentially the same as episode 4.

The questions I have:

1) Why does a wannabe dictator of the galaxy annihilate the productive capacity of 5 planets? Seems to me most dictators want a functioning society to rule over. If you have a new super weapon you can use it on it uninhabited planet or two and demand surrender. Why engage in genocide when rule seems to be the objective?

2) Why does a society capable of building planet killing super weapons keep leaving them vulnerable to a small commando force?

[Derek 2.0]

1) Why does a wannabe dictator of the galaxy annihilate the productive capacity of 5 planets? Seems to me most dictators want a functioning society to rule over. If you have a new super weapon you can use it on it uninhabited planet or two and demand surrender. Why engage in genocide when rule seems to be the objective?

I don't remember if it mentioned which planets, but I'm to assume they were the seat of the New Republic. Perhaps the idea behind such a strategy would be akin to wiping out Ottawa or Washington if one were bent on taking over Canada/United States, in that, you might wipe out the capital full of politicians versus actual productive areas.

My question, we have the bad guy First Order left overs from the Empire, but why is there a New Republic (that just got nuked) and a new Rebel Force?

2) Why does a society capable of building planet killing super weapons keep leaving them vulnerable to a small commando force?

Hubris I suppose.......on reflection, without Finn's knowledge as a garbageman, they wouldn't have been able to destroy it.

[TimG]

I don't remember if it mentioned which planets, but I'm to assume they were the seat of the New Republic. Perhaps the idea behind such a strategy would be akin to wiping out Ottawa or Washington if one were bent on taking over Canada/United States, in that, you might wipe out the capital full of politicians versus actual productive areas.

Except planets are not equal to cities even thought the plot seems treat them as cities. The capital planet would also likely have the most productive farmland and/or most advanced industries.

My question, we have the bad guy First Order left overs from the Empire, but why is there a New Republic (that just got nuked) and a new Rebel Force?

That did not make any sense to me either.

Hubris I suppose.......on reflection, without Finn's knowledge as a garbageman, they wouldn't have been able to destroy it.

How many sailors on a aircraft carrier would know where to deploy a small force that could destroy the carrier?

[Moonlight Graham]

If you've watched the original trilogy, those films were spoilers for 90% of The Force Awakens because the new film recycles so many of the plot devices, characters, planets/settings etc. from all 3 of the original movies, esp. Ep. IV. You can't call it a sequel really, it's more of a reboot...a completely unnecessary reboot. Even though the movie was fun, It contained very few new ideas. Largely devoid of the creativity Lucas was known for (even in the very flawed) prequels and scared to take any risks in favour of old ideas Disney knew fans already liked. Loved the "new" characters, but can we call Rey or Kylo Ren "new". Kylo Ren is basically whiny and temper-tantrum Anakin in tweaked Darth Vader gear.

I was a bit disappointed on my first viewing after reading the hype of the great review scores on Rotten Tomatoes and IMDB, it didn't live up to those great ratings and didn't deserve them. Dumb of me to read those scores/reviews since before them I kept low expectations Before my 2nd viewing I said to myself "ok don't think of this as if it's the real proper Ep. VII sequel, just think of this as the first film of a fun new Star Wars trilogy made by Disney and JJ Abrams", and with that mindset I enjoyed by 2nd viewing more and was able to be less critical and enjoy it as a reboot and fun Star Wars film rather that "Oooh the official sequel to Return of the Jedi, it must be perfect!".

"Let go of your anger and hate" and it's easy to enjoy this flick.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Moonlight Graham

[Derek 2.0]

Except planets are not equal to cities even thought the plot seems treat them as cities. The capital planet would also likely have the most productive farmland and/or most advanced industries.

Is that the case though? I seem to remember the capital, Coursant sp?, being an entire planet transformed into one massive city.

How many sailors on a aircraft carrier would know where to deploy a small force that could destroy the carrier?

How many sailors leave the navy to join the enemy?

[TimG]

Is that the case though? I seem to remember the capital, Coursant sp?, being an entire planet transformed into one massive city.

A planet would need to be able to feed itself and provide for the material needs of its populace.

How many sailors leave the navy to join the enemy?

Many imperial soldiers are conscripted against their will. Turncoats should be expected.

[Derek 2.0]

A planet would need to be able to feed itself and provide for the material needs of its populace.

Why? If in this universe planets are the new cities.

Many imperial soldiers are conscripted against their will. Turncoats should be expected.

I thought most were clones.

[TimG]

Why? If in this universe planets are the new cities.

Because no matter how advanced and cheap space travel is, it still costs money to transport goods. This means there would be a benefit to producing locally. Planets would be best compared to islands or continents on earth - not cities.

I thought most were clones.

Not according to Finn. Edited January 11, 2016 by TimG

[Derek 2.0]

Because no matter how advanced and cheap space travel is, it still costs money to transport goods. This means there would be a benefit to producing locally. Planets would be best compared to islands or continents on earth - not cities.

Cities aren't self-sufficient on Earth, so its not a stretch to assume a city size planet wouldn't be either.

Not according to Finn.

I don't remember him mentioning it.

[TimG]

Cities aren't self-sufficient on Earth, so its not a stretch to assume a city size planet wouldn't be either.

Give me one example of a large city (>1 million) on the planet that does not have food production withing driving distance. To be equivalent you would have to find a city on an island where all food was imported by cargo ship.

I don't remember him mentioning it.

He was taken from his family and forced to serve. Edited January 11, 2016 by TimG

[Derek 2.0]

Give me one example of a large city on the planet that does not have food production withing driving distance. To be equivalent you would have to find a city on an island where all food was imported by cargo ship. The closest equivalents might be some northern cities like Anchorage but the fact that these isolated cities are relatively small supports my point.

I stand to be corrected, but I doubt Vancouver or Toronto find all their requirements within "driving distance".........

He was taken from his family and forced to serve.

Ok, and without his knowledge, the Rebels wouldn't have been able to destroy the base.......

[TimG]

I stand to be corrected, but I doubt Vancouver or Toronto find all their requirements within "driving distance".........

Not today. But the existence of food production nearby is why the cities exist in the first place. If one had an entire planet to work with it would make a lot of economic sense to designate large areas for food production instead of leaving the population vulnerable to interruptions in space born cargo shipments.

Ok, and without his knowledge, the Rebels wouldn't have been able to destroy the base.......

True. But the original question was whether a simple sailor on a aircraft carrier would have enough knowledge to destroy it?

[Hal 9000]

If you've watched the original trilogy, those films were spoilers for 90% of The Force Awakens because the new film recycles so many of the plot devices, characters, planets/settings etc. from all 3 of the original movies, esp. Ep. IV. You can't call it a sequel really, it's more of a reboot...a completely unnecessary reboot. Even though the movie was fun, It contained very few new ideas. Largely devoid of the creativity Lucas was known for (even in the very flawed) prequels and scared to take any risks in favour of old ideas Disney knew fans already liked. Loved the "new" characters, but can we call Rey or Kylo Ren "new". Kylo Ren is basically whiny and temper-tantrum Anakin in tweaked Darth Vader gear.

I was a bit disappointed on my first viewing after reading the hype of the great review scores on Rotten Tomatoes and IMDB, it didn't live up to those great ratings and didn't deserve them. Dumb of me to read those scores/reviews since before them I kept low expectations Before my 2nd viewing I said to myself "ok don't think of this as if it's the real proper Ep. VII sequel, just think of this as the first film of a fun new Star Wars trilogy made by Disney and JJ Abrams", and with that mindset I enjoyed by 2nd viewing more and was able to be less critical and enjoy it as a reboot and fun Star Wars film rather that "Oooh the official sequel to Return of the Jedi, it must be perfect!".

"Let go of your anger and hate" and it's easy to enjoy this flick.

I don't mind that it borrows a lot from IV, what I do mind it that it was so predictable. JJ Abrams can usually show us something different like in Cloverfield, but once you realize the PC'ness, the predictability was sure to follow.

[Derek 2.0]

Not today. But the existence of food production nearby is why the cities exist in the first place. If one had an entire planet to work with it would make a lot of economic sense to designate large areas for food production instead of leaving the population vulnerable to interruptions in space born cargo shipments.

Looking at Vancouver, I can think of more things the city requires that aren't produced locally, then what is produced within the lower mainland............if you closed off trucks/trains/aircraft/shipping to Vancouver it would come to a crashing halt inside a week.

In the Star Wars Universe, we can see why the Republic responded as they did with the Trade Federation.........

True. But the original question was whether a simple sailor on a aircraft carrier would have enough knowledge to destroy it?

Sure, why not? A small explosive placed in the reactor, munitions storage, fuel storage etc........The real question would be if they were able to lead a small commando force inside to do it.

[Moonlight Graham]

The film was predictable throughout. I didn't mind it, but c'mon. I knew that Rey was gonna be Luke's daughter from her first scene, I guess that's how they'll explain her natural Jedi skills. But Kylo Ren was made to look way too soft and unstable. I really hoped that killing Solo would strengthen him, but for a trained Jedi to pretty much lose a sword fight to a generic stormtrooper and then proceed to get his handed to him by Rey was laughable.

A movie like this is only as good as the bad guy in it, and the bad guy was sad indeed. If Disney wanted to expand the story, they woulda made Kylo Ren worse than Vader, but...ho hum. they chose the PC route.

It seems very likely to me that Rey is Han and Leia's daughter, or possibly Luke's (or Obi-Wan's! lol). I could see Kylo Ren and Rey being brother and sister, one dark and one light, both related to Vader and Luke. If the original trilogy was about a father and son relationship the sequel trilogy could be about a brother-sister relationship. Rey may be younger than Kylo and maybe Han and Leia (or Luke) abandoned Rey on Jakku after Kylo went berserk or at least knew Kylo was strong in the dark-side so Rey would never get trained and fall like him.

That would explain Kylo's weakness since he's probably meant to be near even-strengthened as Rey by the end of next movie (Kylo not meant to be as badass as Vader, who was fully trained and much older and far more powerful than Luke), and at the end of the movie Supreme Leader Voldemort Snoke (who is the REAL arch-villain in the movie) told Kylo he's ready to complete his training (probably because Snoke knew he wasn't strong enough yet). In the next movie we'll probably see Luke train Rey so she can take on the then-fully-trained Kylo (who I assume will be trained fully either between VII and VIII or early during VIII around the same time as Rey. Anyways, I think Kylo Ren is an interesting character BECAUSE of the fact he's weak and full of tantrums, the opposite of Vader from the original trilogy. If Kylo was just another super-powerful badass like Vader it would have been boring and repetitive like that rest of the movie, and that type of character could never live up to Vader's coolness anyways.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Moonlight Graham

[Moonlight Graham]

My son heard a rumor that Benicio del Toro will be in the next one........older Boba Fett?

Ya del Toro is in the next one. Him as Boba Fett would make a lot of sense.

[Moonlight Graham]

Was that actually established in the film?

I gathered that's the case from the voiceover in the trailer, the one that says "the Force is strong in my family. My father had it. I have it. My sister had it. And you have it." I assume that was Luke speaking to Rey, but that dialogue didn't actually happen in the film.

It does explain the lightsaber "calling out to her".

Sooooo uh, why does Luke have a daughter? In the "Expanded Universe" books, Luke hooked up with Mara Jade, but it seems as if the new movies have completely thrown the Expanded Universe books in the trash and started with a blank slate.

The film cut A LOT of footage apparently, including a lot of footage that appeared in trailers. It came in around 2hr15m but the first cut JJ said was 2hr50m. That explains why there's so many plot holes and unexplained things, like wtf happened to Poe when he crash landed on Jakku in the Tie Fighter with Finn? JJ says no extended edition coming out, but will release deleted scenes (thankfully, to explain plot/characters better and quell the complaints).

Mara Jade was created in the Expanded Universe books before the prequels were made and before George invented the rule that Jedi's couldn't marry and have kids. As I said in my post above, it's more likely that Rey is Han/Leia's kid and Kylo Ren's brother than Luke's kid. Disney has said that all former expanded universe stuff isn't "canon" and they now have "officially" EU they've started creating, so I guess it really is all just trash. Mara Jade was a really popular EU character so it wouldn't surprise me if they brought her in and Luke had a secret love affair during his exile or whatever.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Moonlight Graham

[Bonam]

Because no matter how advanced and cheap space travel is, it still costs money to transport goods. This means there would be a benefit to producing locally. Planets would be best compared to islands or continents on earth - not cities.

Many science fiction settings portray planets that are not self-sufficient in terms of food or other basic requirements. This is hardly notable as a "plot hole". In any case, it's like anything else, once you get the cost of transport low enough, the economic advantage of producing food elsewhere (i.e. where land values are much cheaper than on the capital planet) could outweigh the transportation costs. Whether the costs of interplanetary/interstellar transport could ever really be made that low is beside the point, since the Star Wars setting portrays other technologies that seem similarly unlikely.

Back to your original question - why blow up 5 planets when you could rule them instead? Seems obvious, given that we're talking about a galactic scale civilization. Presumably controlling the galaxy means controlling billions of inhabited planets, so destroying 5 to bring the rest in line is a small price to pay.

Frankly the fact that there were 6 habitable planets in one solar system (they could see all 5 blowing up in the sky from yet another habitable planet) seems like a bigger flaw to me if one wanted to be nitpicky about these kinds of details. 6 Earthlike planets crammed into the habitable zone of a star would be too close together and would interfere with each other's orbits, making them unstable.

All of this is beside the point, it's a given with movies like Star Wars that the viewer should be willing to have a certain suspension of disbelief regarding the portrayed science and technology and magic. More problematic are glaring holes in the plot. Like why when you build a planet-sized weapon you don't learn the one lesson that you should have learned from the destruction of its predecessor...

Personally though, the part that disappointed me somewhat about this movie was the complete lack of discussion of what transpired between the end of Return of the Jedi and the start of The Force Awakens. What happened in the wake of the end of the Empire? What's this new Republic? How did the First Order gain enough power to build a planet-killing weapon?

Edited January 11, 2016 by Bonam

[kimmy]

I thought most were clones.

The Empire didn't build the clones themselves, remember, they were bought from a factory on a planet called "Kamino" in Episode 2.

Given that the original clone army were biologically adult at a time before Luke and Leia were born, the first batch of clones are probably dead of old age by the time of The Force Awakens. Supposing that the Empire continued buying fresh batches of clones right up to the time they were defeated, the last batch of clones purchased would still be biologically quite old (by soldier standards at least) and certainly a lot older than Finn.

And I would assume "The First Order" couldn't just go out and start buying clones... they were in retreat after being defeated and must have needed some amount of time to rebuild themselves... and I wouldn't think the New Republic would allow defeated enemies to just fly over to Kamino and purchase a fresh army.

But I also don't think the Empire would have continued buying clones following the events in Revenge of the Sith, because they had no enemy to fight and they could just recruit soldiers from member planets. Luke talked about going to the Academy in Episode 4.

Not according to Finn.

I think the General dude talked about having soldiers who were indoctrinated from childhood, didn't he? Also I think Phasma said something about FN287 having not shown any breeches of his programming prior to the incident on Jakku... it sounds like the soldiers are raised from childhood and brainwashed the whole time.

-k

[kimmy]

Darth Vader? That's what my son thinks........would explain how Ren got his mask.....maybe he didn't die on the Death Star and Luke set him up in a Jedi witness protection program and faked his death

Not Darth Vader... Darth Plagueis.

In Episode 3, Chancellor Palpatine/Darth Sidious tells Anakin about his master, Darth Plagueis, who was supposedly so powerful that he could create life or deny death. Palpatine tells Anakin that he killed Plagueis... but maybe he didn't. Can't be easy to kill a guy who can deny death, right?

The supposed evidence for this theory is the music. John Williams doesn't recycle music without a reason. In the original trilogy the Imperial March is strongly identified with Darth Vader, and in the prequels, we hear musical hints from the Imperial March when Anakin makes choices that lead him toward evil. Things like that.

So regarding the Snoke/Plagueis theory: the music we hear when we meet Supreme Leader Snoke is allegedly the same music that we heard when Palpatine was telling Anakin the legend of Plagueis, and that music appears nowhere else in the 7 movies. According to proponents of the theory, at least.

-k

[TimG]

Back to your original question - why blow up 5 planets when you could rule them instead? Seems obvious, given that we're talking about a galactic scale civilization. Presumably controlling the galaxy means controlling billions of inhabited planets, so destroying 5 to bring the rest in line is a small price to pay.

I would expect the galaxy to consist of a small number of 'home worlds' where life evolved and a much larger number of 'colonies' where life was transplanted. Any 'home world' would be an extremely valuable because it would have had the agriculture and industry that developed to support a civilization plus a huge population. A colony world would have some other resource that justified the colony. That said, I agree the logic of the action depends entirely on the presumed 'worth of a planet'.

All of this is beside the point, it's a given with movies like Star Wars that the viewer should be willing to have a certain suspension of disbelief regarding the portrayed science and technology and magic.

I see science fiction as a story about human interaction given a set of technological assumptions which are generally indistinguishable from magic. I have no issue with the technological assumptions (such as how can a planet killing energy weapon travel faster than the speed of light). I quibble about human choices that seem irrational given the assumptions.

Personally though, the part that disappointed me somewhat about this movie was the complete lack of discussion of what transpired between the end of Return of the Jedi and the start of The Force Awakens. What happened in the wake of the end of the Empire? What's this new Republic? How did the First Order gain enough power to build a planet-killing weapon?

Yes, none of this made any sense to me. Edited January 11, 2016 by TimG

[Derek 2.0]

The Empire didn't build the clones themselves, remember, they were bought from a factory on a planet called "Kamino" in Episode 2.

I remember that, but couldn't the Empire have just done what the Nazis did in the Czech republic with the Skoda works......move and/or replicate the cloning facilities elsewhere?

Given that the original clone army were biologically adult at a time before Luke and Leia were born, the first batch of clones are probably dead of old age by the time of The Force Awakens. Supposing that the Empire continued buying fresh batches of clones right up to the time they were defeated, the last batch of clones purchased would still be biologically quite old (by soldier standards at least) and certainly a lot older than Finn.

For sure, Episode 2-7 must span a good 50-60 Earth years.

And I would assume "The First Order" couldn't just go out and start buying clones... they were in retreat after being defeated and must have needed some amount of time to rebuild themselves... and I wouldn't think the New Republic would allow defeated enemies to just fly over to Kamino and purchase a fresh army.

Like I said above, the Empire could have just created additional cloning facilities, I think that only prudent.......I would think if they could build a planet size "starkiller base", they had enough resources to continue cloning.......Maybe Finn is just a new model clone based off a small child abducted????

But I also don't think the Empire would have continued buying clones following the events in Revenge of the Sith, because they had no enemy to fight and they could just recruit soldiers from member planets. Luke talked about going to the Academy in Episode 4.

I remember that, I'd always assumed (since the second trilogy) the Empire had its primary clone army made of the various Storm Troopers, flushed out by enlisted humans in more technical roles:

And led by a proper Officer Corps:

I'd assume Luke was trying to get into one of these career paths.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Derek 2.0

[Derek 2.0]

Not Darth Vader... Darth Plagueis.

I think I have a weekend of Star Wars watching ahead of me

[Boges]

So how many more times is the Empire/First Order going to go with the whole Planet killing space station model to enslave the Galaxy that can be taken out with a small squadron of fighters?

Seems like they need a different strategy.