eyeball Posted February 2, 2016 Report Posted February 2, 2016 I'm reminded of that adage you can't understand things for people. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted February 2, 2016 Report Posted February 2, 2016 Fishermen overfished for years and stocks dwindled. They were offered too much money for their licences (from generally chinese business men),Where on Earth are you getting this from? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Hal 9000 Posted February 2, 2016 Report Posted February 2, 2016 (edited) Where on Earth are you getting this from? Personal fishing experience....and knowing several fishermen. So, answer again, who owns the licenses and why? Edited February 2, 2016 by Hal 9000 Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
eyeball Posted February 3, 2016 Report Posted February 3, 2016 Personal fishing experience....and knowing several fishermen.Personal or commercial fishing experience? I have about 30 years at it myself not to mention 5 - 6 years of political activity to try and prevent what was happening.There is no large scale investment of Chinese money in the fishery at all. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted February 3, 2016 Report Posted February 3, 2016 Most licences are virtually worthless without quota. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Big Guy Posted February 3, 2016 Report Posted February 3, 2016 What is wrong with the economy. Just filled up the car and the truck and saved about $20. Price now is $.81 a liter locally. I think that is great!!!! Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Hal 9000 Posted February 3, 2016 Report Posted February 3, 2016 Personal or commercial fishing experience? I have about 30 years at it myself not to mention 5 - 6 years of political activity to try and prevent what was happening. There is no large scale investment of Chinese money in the fishery at all. 30 years? Makes me wonder if maybe you're one of the old school fishermen who won't accept that it's the fishermens own fault. As is usually the case in all fisheries. Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
Argus Posted February 3, 2016 Author Report Posted February 3, 2016 (edited) What is wrong with the economy. Just filled up the car and the truck and saved about $20. Price now is $.81 a liter locally. I think that is great!!!! It's even cheaper in Pakistan. Do you envy their economy? Edited February 3, 2016 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
eyeball Posted February 3, 2016 Report Posted February 3, 2016 (edited) 30 years? Makes me wonder if maybe you're one of the old school fishermen who won't accept that it's the fishermens own fault. As is usually the case in all fisheries. This is where the rubber of your argument completely misses the road - you simply have no idea what you're talking about. Overfishing is a product of bad fisheries management not the other way around. It is the government's job to ensure harvests are held to a sustainable level and they have failed in almost every case. There is no doubt lobbyists for the most powerful fishing interests can sway management decisions in their favour which usually means suppressing another sector's opportunity or overestimating the size of a stock or run and letting a fishery continue when it shouldn't. It is the public's job to ensure government's do their jobs properly and the public is failing even worse at that. Which brings me back to my point about fisheries being a really good indicator of what's wrong in our economy and why it's starting to suck so badly. The same brutal venality in our government's mismanagement in the face of growing scarcity in our fisheries and how it favours wealthy interests over all others is a clear indication of what the future holds for everyone where scarcity starts biting. When fishing communities suffer and die off it is an indication that something is very wrong exactly like suffering dying canaries tell miners to be alarmed - There is something wrong with the fish their habitat, their management of these things and the economy. So do we blame loggers for destroying salmon habitat or forestry managers who let them do things like cut everything in sight, yard across rivers or use clean gravel from spawning channels for logging roads? Do you think government managers are about to correct you in your assessment that dwindling fish stocks are someone else's fault? Hardly. And when governments are finally forced to change what they're doing notice how often ordinary people have their livelihoods ruined, whole towns go belly up and yet when the dust settles the richest most powerful stakeholders come out on top and richer and more powerful than ever. Notice how our global economy is clearly hurting everywhere and yet income gaps are also growing everywhere. I can't think of a more glaring indicator of just how deliberately unjust our economy is than the rich getting richer on a planet and in an economy that is on the brink of unsustainability. Now notice just how oblivious the public is to what's actually going on. This thread is a perfect indicator. Edited February 3, 2016 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted February 3, 2016 Report Posted February 3, 2016 (edited) . Edited February 3, 2016 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
ReeferMadness Posted February 3, 2016 Report Posted February 3, 2016 This is where the rubber of your argument completely misses the road - you simply have no idea what you're talking about. Overfishing is a product of bad fisheries management not the other way around. It is the government's job to ensure harvests are held to a sustainable level and they have failed in almost every case. There is no doubt lobbyists for the most powerful fishing interests can sway management decisions in their favour which usually means suppressing another sector's opportunity or overestimating the size of a stock or run and letting a fishery continue when it shouldn't. It is the public's job to ensure government's do their jobs properly and the public is failing even worse at that. Yup. The government sells out the future for the sake of short term gains in the present. And the public mostly demands it. See what's happening on the pipeline front for more of the same. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Hal 9000 Posted February 3, 2016 Report Posted February 3, 2016 Yup. The government sells out the future for the sake of short term gains in the present. And the public mostly demands it. See what's happening on the pipeline front for more of the same. Really? And fishermen don't? Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
eyeball Posted February 3, 2016 Report Posted February 3, 2016 Really? And fishermen don't? Some do, we're human like everyone else but that's what governments are supposed to be for, to keep our passions and greed and other failings in check for the common good. As it stands now governments are doing exactly what you're apparently alarmed about, selling out the future for the sake of short term gains in the present - and mostly for the benefit of the already rich and powerful. You really can't see why that or how that would make a bad economy suck even more? It's really astounding. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Hal 9000 Posted February 3, 2016 Report Posted February 3, 2016 Some do, we're human like everyone else but that's what governments are supposed to be for, to keep our passions and greed and other failings in check for the common good. As it stands now governments are doing exactly what you're apparently alarmed about, selling out the future for the sake of short term gains in the present - and mostly for the benefit of the already rich and powerful. You really can't see why that or how that would make a bad economy suck even more? It's really astounding. Honestly, I couldn't care less about most of the wild fish fishermen. If It was up to me, I'd have a complete moratorium on wild fishing. Fish Farms can handle most of the demand and employs quite a few people in BC. Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
eyeball Posted February 3, 2016 Report Posted February 3, 2016 Honestly, I couldn't care less about most of the wild fish fishermen. Yes well, that's another indicator of things to come. Why should anyone give a damn about anyone, what's in it for them? Just wait until that attitude goes global. If It was up to me, I'd have a complete moratorium on wild fishing. Fish Farms can handle most of the demand and employs quite a few people in BC. You didn't know fish farming is responsible for depleting some of the biggest schools of wild fish on the planet? You seem to be as ill-informed about fish-farming as you are about fishing. Depending on the production region, 1.5 – 8 kilograms of wild fish are needed to produce one kilogram of farmed salmon. “With global [fish] catches declining since the late 1980s, continuation of present trends will lead to supply shortfall, for which aquaculture cannot be expected to compensate, and may well exacerbate.” Daniel Pauly et al. (2005) Nature 1 Source Ultimately it's ignorance that is the real reason our economy sucks. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Hal 9000 Posted February 3, 2016 Report Posted February 3, 2016 Yes well, that's another indicator of things to come. Why should anyone give a damn about anyone, what's in it for them? Just wait until that attitude goes global. You didn't know fish farming is responsible for depleting some of the biggest schools of wild fish on the planet? You seem to be as ill-informed about fish-farming as you are about fishing. Ultimately it's ignorance that is the real reason our economy sucks. I thought you were concerned that most of the money was going to sources other than the fishermen? Wild Salmon aren't really as big of source of revenue for the average person or the province anymore. Without salmon farms, the world demand for salmon would result in pacific fishermen annihilating the wild salmon stocks in in about 2-3 years. Fish farming may be the only thing keeping wild salmon alive. Do you really think killing wild salmon is a good way to protect the species? I'm pretty sure west coast fishermen have killed many many more fish than a fish farm ever could. P.S - Dragging out the old 8kg of fish to produce 1kg makes no sense. Please update your 11 year old bias crap report. Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
eyeball Posted February 3, 2016 Report Posted February 3, 2016 (edited) ...the world demand for salmon would result in pacific fishermen annihilating the wild salmon stocks in in about 2-3 years. Why exactly do you persist in ignoring the relationship between fisheries management and overfishing? This is truly the most mystifying aspect of your deeply flawed and appallingly misinformed arguments. Edited February 3, 2016 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Hal 9000 Posted February 3, 2016 Report Posted February 3, 2016 Why exactly do you persist in ignoring the relationship between fisheries management and overfishing? This is truly the most mystifying aspect of your deeply flawed and appallingly misinformed arguments. You want to take no accountability for the situation you're in. You blame the gov't for allowing you to over fish, then blame them for allowing fishermen to sell off their licences. My last skipper sold his licence to his Vancouver buyer to pay off his boat. The buyer has the licence (and hundreds of others in various fisheries) and my skipper and his boat are long gone - sheer idiocy! You're not entirely wrong though, in some provinces you have to a resident to own a licence - I'm not sure of the exact details, but provisions are in place to dissuade fishermen from selling off licences the way BC fishers have. The gov't might be guilty of trusting that fishers could handle their own business, but the whole "gov't screwed us over" routine is pure hogwash. Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
eyeball Posted February 3, 2016 Report Posted February 3, 2016 You want to take no accountability for the situation you're in. What situation is that? I'm in the same economy you are. You blame the gov't for allowing you to over fish, And why aren't you? That billionaire I mentioned who controls 40% or more of BC's salmon catch netted 85000 sockeye in one set, a world record, enough to fill about another 10 his seiners, enough fish to sustain the 50 trollers and their families that are left on the west coast of the island who were not allowed to catch a single fish out of the biggest salmon run in living memory. Jimmy fished for a couple of months lobbied for more and probably tucked your old skippers licence in his drawer for good measure. Let me guess, a ragpicker right? My last skipper sold his licence to his Vancouver buyer to pay off his boat. The buyer has the licence (and hundreds of others in various fisheries) and my skipper and his boat are long gone - sheer idiocy! Yes that what I've been saying. He probably sold it so he could salvage what he had left of his savings and get out from under his boat. Who do you suppose it was that allowed so much opportunity to be concentrated into so few hands and why? Ottawa sets the conditions under which the licences it issues can be bought and sold not licencees, well, not the little ones with no lobbying power at least. You're not entirely wrong though, in some provinces you have to a resident to own a licence - I'm not sure of the exact details, but provisions are in place to dissuade fishermen from selling off licences the way BC fishers have. You're entirely wrong to compare provincial fisheries licencing to tidal ocean fisheries licencing which is managed federally. Provinces have more to lose politically by not managing more accordingly to the wishes of constituents that are a lot closer to home. Ottawa has never had anything to lose by screwing over the west coast. I get the sense you realize on some level you have been screwed but you just don't have a clue about who's screwing you, and how they're screwing you and why. Here's a clue, they have power and you don't and the sort of government interference this power can influence in the economy is the primary reason it sucks, lest we forget the topic. It's a local phenomenon and a global one and its getting worse and anyone who tells you things are just dandy is either deluded or laughing all the way to the bank. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Big Guy Posted February 3, 2016 Report Posted February 3, 2016 (edited) It's even cheaper in Pakistan. Do you envy their economy? You obviously are unhappy here. Perhaps you might consider moving to a country whose economy is in better shape in your estimation. I am very happy here and have no problems or fears for our economy. Today I am stocking up on shrimp, sausage, various fruits, beer, whiskey and scotch in anticipation of the Super Bowl weekend party. These foods come from all over the world as do the libations. Don't like it here? Move. Canada, what a wonderful place to live. Edited February 3, 2016 by Big Guy Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Argus Posted February 3, 2016 Author Report Posted February 3, 2016 Today I am stocking up on shrimp, sausage, various fruits, beer, whiskey and scotch in anticipation of the Super Bowl weekend party. These foods come from all over the world as do the libations. Gee, if I didn't know better I'd say this sounds like a fat-cat overpaid public servant relaxing on his golden pension and laughing at the poor people trying to afford food. You might as well say "Let em eat cake" and wear a blonde wig.. Don't like it here? Move. The Archie Bunker of Mapleleaf Web "America! Love it or leave it!" Same mentality, same ignorance. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 3, 2016 Report Posted February 3, 2016 The Archie Bunker of Mapleleaf Web "America! Love it or leave it!" Same mentality, same ignorance. Indeed...and same American cultural reference. I love it ! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Big Guy Posted February 4, 2016 Report Posted February 4, 2016 (edited) Gee, if I didn't know better I'd say this sounds like a fat-cat overpaid public servant relaxing on his golden pension and laughing at the poor people trying to afford food. You might as well say "Let em eat cake" and wear a blonde wig.. The Archie Bunker of Mapleleaf Web "America! Love it or leave it!" Same mentality, same ignorance. You should know better but are obviously incapable and I really do not care what anything sounds to you. You are still not doing your homework. Try this sound: Sho, sho Go away go follow somebody else. Want to make Canada better - emigrate! Canada, what a wonderful place to live. Edited February 4, 2016 by Big Guy Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Argus Posted February 4, 2016 Author Report Posted February 4, 2016 You should know better but are obviously incapable I see. So your suggestion that since everything is peachy for a retired teacher on his fat golden pension then the world is okay should not be taken as pure selfishness without a shred of sympathy for the poor and out of work? Try this sound: Sho, sho Go away go follow somebody else. Want to make Canada better - emigrate! But then who would pay the taxes that keeps unproductive people like you in booze and pork rinds? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Big Guy Posted February 4, 2016 Report Posted February 4, 2016 (edited) I see. So your suggestion that since everything is peachy for a retired teacher on his fat golden pension then the world is okay should not be taken as pure selfishness without a shred of sympathy for the poor and out of work? But then who would pay the taxes that keeps unproductive people like you in booze and pork rinds? You will not take my advice. You refuse to do your homework. Instead you choose to spend your time on cheap shots and irritants. But you have been very good at wasting my time. Congratulations! You are showing promise in that area. Canada, what a wonderful place to live even if Argus refuses to emigrate! Edited February 4, 2016 by Big Guy Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
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