kimmy Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 Odd that the roof top brake light dances on the three people leaving the trucks's faces, likewise, that the brake light(s) are painting Finicum's head well on the ground......break lights from the cops in the treeline, that enter the frame after the third person exits the truck Except from the impacts on the truck body.........you care to explain how Ryan Bundy received a gun shot wound in the shoulder? For the red dot, I was referring to the one on the roof of the truck which had been mentioned, which is obviously the brake light. For Ryan Bundy, has it actually been established that he was shot? I read that he was "injured, treated, and released". I would think the injury was most likely from when his buddy crashed the truck. For the truck, what impacts? How is it that they fired all of this ammunition at the truck and inflicted no visible damage? Were the feds armed with airsoft rifles? edited to add...........from 7 seconds, looks like a guy reaching for shot to his lower left side.... I agree that at 7 seconds he's clutching a wound, but at 4 seconds he reaches for something in his jacket. At that point they have clear reason to shoot. What was he reaching for? We don't know. They did say he had a 9mm in his jacket pocket. This picture shows Finicum's jacket having a front pocket on the left side in a location that would be suitable for a right-handed draw. He could have been reaching for that. I don't know. I don't think the federal agents know either. I don't think they can be expected to know the particulars of where Finicum keeps his gun or what his preferred style of draw is. As soon as his hand goes for his jacket, they have reason to shoot him. -k Quote (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
Derek 2.0 Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 For the red dot, I was referring to the one on the roof of the truck which had been mentioned, which is obviously the brake light. Fair enough. For Ryan Bundy, has it actually been established that he was shot? I read that he was "injured, treated, and released". I would think the injury was most likely from when his buddy crashed the truck. Yes, and cited, in the media quoting law enforcement. For the truck, what impacts? How is it that they fired all of this ammunition at the truck and inflicted no visible damage? Were the feds armed with airsoft rifles? The impacts that can be seen on the passengers side as the aircraft footage rounds the truck, likewise, the holed windshield, and the drivers and drivers side passenger windows shot out after Finicum is killed.......I suppose the LEOs could have been throwing compacted snow balls. This was all testified to by the young girl in the truck, prior to the video being released, and could be confirmed, or denied, by law enforcement simply releasing crime scene pictures of Finicum's truck.......odd that they won't. I agree that at 7 seconds he's clutching a wound, but at 4 seconds he reaches for something in his jacket. At that point they have clear reason to shoot. I contend at 4 seconds he is shot by the officer beside (not behind) the black police Dodge pick-up (the same officer that nearly got hit?), which causes him to the loose his balance, turning towards the officer, well he is reaching for his side, then is shot again by the officer behind him once, were you can see his knees begin to buckle and Finicum turn to face the officer, then is shot a third time and drops............ Again, this could be confirmed or denied by the autopsy, which they refuse to release. What was he reaching for? We don't know. They did say he had a 9mm in his jacket pocket. This picture shows Finicum's jacket having a front pocket on the left side in a location that would be suitable for a right-handed draw. He could have been reaching for that. I don't know. I don't think the federal agents know either. I don't think they can be expected to know the particulars of where Finicum keeps his gun or what his preferred style of draw is. As soon as his hand goes for his jacket, they have reason to shoot him. -k Don't get me wrong, the use of lethal force, after nearly crashing the roadblock is almost expected.......my question (which could be confirmed by the autopsy and audio from the dash cams) is if this was a case of a jumpy police officer ,that nearly got run over, shooting him first, and the other officer reacting once he grabs for a wound. Further to that, what caused Finicum to take off, after he and two of the adult passengers had their hands out the window of the stopped truck? Doesn't seem like a response by those ready to go down shooting......and after the crash, why is Finicum seen with raised hands, only to then "reach for a gun" on his weak side (after leaving his proudly displayed revolver at the refuge)? And further to that still, why didn't the FBI arrest the Bundy gang the ~week previous when they went out to the airport (FBI's command center) to negotiate unarmed, but with press in tow? I find it odd that they picked an ambush on a stretch of road, well the group was on its way for a public meeting in the next county over, to present evidence (they claimed to have) of corruption in Harney County......namely, collusion between the county judge and his cousin that just happens to work for the BLM. Quote
ReeferMadness Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 ^^Well, I'm not going to go into spike strips and video skips. But, when you make threats that you won't be taken alive and that you'll go out shooting, you sort of lose the benefit of doubt as to your intentions. With that said, I believe this was a no weapons, hands up police shooting. The FBI reported he had a loaded 9mm in his jacket pocket. You can believe that or not. At some point this whole discussion gets a little silly. All it proves is that when people look at a few seconds of distant, not-all-that-clear video, they see what they're inclined to see. The fact is that the FBI gave these guys plenty of time to walk away and even then only acted when the state governor started making public statements. And they still haven't taken any action against the 4 or 5 guys still occupying the reserve. If you stand back and look at this end to end, the theory that the FBI wanted to execute Finicum (or anyone else) doesn't hold water. If they really wanted to kill people, Finicum gave them enough reason to open fire by failing to stop and then trying to run the roadblock. They could have opened fire and made sure that nobody walked away from that truck. They had ample reason to believe the group would be armed and they had lots of public statements to the effect that people wouldn't be taken alive. They didn't need to take or release the video - it would have been their word against nobody's. And if they had opened fire, it would have still been less egregious than any number of cases where police used hails of bullets against unarmed people like this case. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Derek 2.0 Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 If you stand back and look at this end to end, the theory that the FBI wanted to execute Finicum (or anyone else) doesn't hold water. If they really wanted to kill people, Finicum gave them enough reason to open fire by failing to stop and then trying to run the roadblock. They could have opened fire and made sure that nobody walked away from that truck. They had ample reason to believe the group would be armed and they had lots of public statements to the effect that people wouldn't be taken alive. They didn't need to take or release the video - it would have been their word against nobody's. Failing to stop? They stopped, held their hands out the windows as directed and Ryan Payne was detained by the LEOs before Finicum took off after being shot at well stopped. Quote
ReeferMadness Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 Failing to stop? They stopped, held their hands out the windows as directed and Ryan Payne was detained by the LEOs before Finicum took off after being shot at well stopped. If Finicum really wanted to surrender, he would have shut off the truck and followed orders to get out. LEO's are not going to approach a vehicle carrying a bunch of armed people who've publicly sworn to not be taken alive. And what proof do you have that they were being shot at? Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Derek 2.0 Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 If Finicum really wanted to surrender, he would have shut off the truck and followed orders to get out. LEO's are not going to approach a vehicle carrying a bunch of armed people who've publicly sworn to not be taken alive. And what proof do you have that they were being shot at? Ryan Payne left the truck and went to the LEO's (as ordered) were he was led away (as seen in the video), so there was no reason why LEO's would have to approach the truck. The "proof" is the testimony of the young girl, since released, that was in the truck, coupled with the flashes as seen in the video............ Do you not find it curious why, in the video, the complete surrender and take down of Payne is not shown, with footage panning elsewhere, only to return once he's being led away, minutes before Finicum buggers off? Quote
ReeferMadness Posted January 30, 2016 Report Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) Ryan Payne left the truck and went to the LEO's (as ordered) were he was led away (as seen in the video), so there was no reason why LEO's would have to approach the truck. And he was able to surrender without incident. But nobody else left the truck. Why not? The "proof" is the testimony of the young girl, since released, that was in the truck, coupled with the flashes as seen in the video............ I didn't see any flashes, not even when Finicum was shot. And I would hardly consider the testimony of the girl as proof. She's hardly objective, she wouldn't have any training in this and she would be scared. Do you not find it curious why, in the video, the complete surrender and take down of Payne is not shown, with footage panning elsewhere, only to return once he's being led away, minutes before Finicum buggers off? It's interesting but proof of nothing. They scanned back to the jeep - IDK why. It seems like you think the FBI and OSP colluded to shoot Finicum - is that what you're saying? Why only Finicum? Why not the Bundy's? And more to the point, if you wanted to shoot someone and make it look like it was justified, are you telling me this is the way you'd do it? It makes no sense. Edited January 30, 2016 by ReeferMadness Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Derek 2.0 Posted January 31, 2016 Report Posted January 31, 2016 And he was able to surrender without incident. But nobody else left the truck. Why not? LEO's would have them leave the truck one at a time.........why they went from stopping, hands out the window, with one surrendering, to taking off is the question. As claimed, at that point, LEO fired at the truck. I didn't see any flashes, not even when Finicum was shot. And I would hardly consider the testimony of the girl as proof. She's hardly objective, she wouldn't have any training in this and she would be scared. You can see flashes from the footage, seconds before Finicum takes off, which would be more pronounced from a rifle or shotgun (as we can see the LEO's armed with at the first stop), versus a handgun, which we can see present when they kill Finicum. She would be as objective in this incident as LEO........and one doesn't need "training" to hear gun shots. It's interesting but proof of nothing. They scanned back to the jeep - IDK why. They scanned back to an empty Jeep, well Payne left the truck........that is more than interesting. It seems like you think the FBI and OSP colluded to shoot Finicum - is that what you're saying? Why only Finicum? Why not the Bundy's? No, I feel the entire events aren't being conveyed by the FBI/OSP, and that Finicum's death was the result of a comedy of errors and bungling on the part of law enforcement. And more to the point, if you wanted to shoot someone and make it look like it was justified, are you telling me this is the way you'd do it? It makes no sense. No, I'm saying that to the unwashed masses, the short edited clip played by MSM, would appear to be justification.......but then media manipulation by the FBI has been used in the past, and is only sometimes redressed by an investigation after the fact. Case in point, Waco and the years of investigation (at a congressional level) that displayed the numerous mistakes made by both the BATF and then the FBI, that resulted in the deaths of largely innocent people, by the use of heavy handed tactics by Federal Law Enforcement. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted January 31, 2016 Report Posted January 31, 2016 Failing to stop? They stopped, held their hands out the windows as directed and Ryan Payne was detained by the LEOs before Finicum took off after being shot at well stopped. They stopped because they ran into the friggin snow bank trying to go around the roadblock. I'm just surprised they all didn't get shot. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted January 31, 2016 Report Posted January 31, 2016 And it looks like the Pacific Patriot Network has started filtering into Burns, and Pete Santilli's (a journalist arrested with the Bundy's) channel is streaming the first day's protest, via a couple that are friends with Santilli. Quote
kimmy Posted January 31, 2016 Report Posted January 31, 2016 I saw the "flashes" you mentioned prior to the truck speeding off, and am completely unconvinced that they're muzzle flashes from guns. The feds are standing beside a vehicle that has police strobes and high-beams flashing. The police strobes and high-beams on their vehicle aren't visible in the frame... it seems unlikely that muzzle-flashes would flicker the whole frame like that when the high-beams and strobes aren't even noticeable. I think it's more likely that this is an effect of auto-light correction in the video recording equipment. Similar flashes can seen at other times. For example, similar flashes can be seen between 6:00 to 6:30, long before Finicum drives off. And what's more you can see the feds in those frames and it's clear that whatever those flashes are, they're not coming from the feds' weapons. I think the far more likely explanation is that there's no hail of bullets, the girl is lying to create spin favorable to her "team", and Lavoy drove off because he was not acting rationally. -k Quote (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
Derek 2.0 Posted January 31, 2016 Report Posted January 31, 2016 I think the far more likely explanation is that there's no hail of bullets, the girl is lying to create spin favorable to her "team", and Lavoy drove off because he was not acting rationally. Then why would he stop in the first place? Why would Finicum and company place their hands out the window? Why would Ryan Payne surrender? And what motivation would a 17 year old girl have to lie, inversely, would there not be motivation for police to lie, say to cover-up excessive force or a negligent discharge? You yourself, in countless threads, have spoken to the "blue wall of silence"......do police only lie when they kill black teens? Quote
The_Squid Posted January 31, 2016 Author Report Posted January 31, 2016 lol Derek2.0 is fitting the evidence to his preferred narrative... give it up already.... it's conspiracy theory nonsense. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted January 31, 2016 Report Posted January 31, 2016 lol Derek2.0 is fitting the evidence to his preferred narrative... How is that? Quote
kimmy Posted January 31, 2016 Report Posted January 31, 2016 Then why would he stop in the first place? Why would Finicum and company place their hands out the window? Why would Ryan Payne surrender? And what motivation would a 17 year old girl have to lie, inversely, would there not be motivation for police to lie, say to cover-up excessive force or a negligent discharge? There are obvious answers to all of these questions, but you refuse to consider them. You yourself, in countless threads, have spoken to the "blue wall of silence"......do police only lie when they kill black teens? I can't speak to whether the FBI has the same "blue code" culture and history of systematic abuse that exists in many police forces. However, I think that when deaths at the hands of police are this cut and dried, the police don't need to cover it up. -k Quote (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
Derek 2.0 Posted January 31, 2016 Report Posted January 31, 2016 There are obvious answers to all of these questions, but you refuse to consider them. No, I refuse to fully accept the story from an agency that has been found to lie wholesale in the past. As I said, several simple items made public (autopsy, dash cams/audio, crime scene pictures of Finicum's truck etc), all items that other policing agencies in the past have had no qualms releasing, could go very far in furthering the discussion.......why does the FBI refuse to have said info made public? I can't speak to whether the FBI has the same "blue code" culture and history of systematic abuse that exists in many police forces. However, I think that when deaths at the hands of police are this cut and dried, the police don't need to cover it up. You're talking about the FBI.......the house built by Hoover? They very much so have the capacity, and history of abuse, afforded by a political and economic footprint more influential than most nations entire military/policing agencies combined. How many (independent) published autopsies did Micheal Brown receive in that cut and dried case? Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted January 31, 2016 Report Posted January 31, 2016 How many (independent) published autopsies did Micheal Brown receive in that cut and dried case? The fact you consider the Brown case "cut and dried" speaks volumes of your obvious slant. The autopsy results will be released as will the dashcams etc., and I suspect you will actually be able to see what a cut and dried case looks like. To most of us it's pretty obvious from the video as well as the surrounding details. But then you're the guy who stated cops don't use hollow point rounds as well right? Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted January 31, 2016 Report Posted January 31, 2016 But then you're the guy who stated cops don't use hollow point rounds as well right? Nope. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted January 31, 2016 Report Posted January 31, 2016 Nope. Oh I think you did with regard to the Sammy Yatim case, but it's beside the point of this case. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted January 31, 2016 Report Posted January 31, 2016 Oh I think you did with regard to the Sammy Yatim case, but it's beside the point of this case. Nope. Quote
Hal 9000 Posted January 31, 2016 Report Posted January 31, 2016 The FBI reported he had a loaded 9mm in his jacket pocket. You can believe that or not. At some point this whole discussion gets a little silly. All it proves is that when people look at a few seconds of distant, not-all-that-clear video, they see what they're inclined to see. The fact is that the FBI gave these guys plenty of time to walk away and even then only acted when the state governor started making public statements. And they still haven't taken any action against the 4 or 5 guys still occupying the reserve. If you stand back and look at this end to end, the theory that the FBI wanted to execute Finicum (or anyone else) doesn't hold water. If they really wanted to kill people, Finicum gave them enough reason to open fire by failing to stop and then trying to run the roadblock. They could have opened fire and made sure that nobody walked away from that truck. They had ample reason to believe the group would be armed and they had lots of public statements to the effect that people wouldn't be taken alive. They didn't need to take or release the video - it would have been their word against nobody's. And if they had opened fire, it would have still been less egregious than any number of cases where police used hails of bullets against unarmed people like this case. Do I have a lot of sympathy for the old man? Not really, I think he wanted to go out in a blaze of bullets! Do I think he was unarmed and had his hands up? Yes, I do! Do I think this was an arranged ambush? Yes, I do! White or not, Christian or not, gun nut or not, what happened happened. But, when It happens to a black man, I hope you people are as giddy as you are about this shooting, but I doubt it! Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
On Guard for Thee Posted January 31, 2016 Report Posted January 31, 2016 Do I have a lot of sympathy for the old man? Not really, I think he wanted to go out in a blaze of bullets! Do I think he was unarmed and had his hands up? Yes, I do! Do I think this was an arranged ambush? Yes, I do! White or not, Christian or not, gun nut or not, what happened happened. But, when It happens to a black man, I hope you people are as giddy as you are about this shooting, but I doubt it! "Arranged ambush"? These were a group of rubes who took over a federal building with guns in hand. So it wasn't an ambush, it was an attempt to restore law and order. Ya' know, what cops are paid to do. He didn't have his hands up when he was shot, and he apparently carried a loaded 9mm. So he got his wish to not be taken alive. Quote
Hal 9000 Posted January 31, 2016 Report Posted January 31, 2016 "Arranged ambush"? These were a group of rubes who took over a federal building with guns in hand. So it wasn't an ambush, it was an attempt to restore law and order. Ya' know, what cops are paid to do. He didn't have his hands up when he was shot, and he apparently carried a loaded 9mm. So he got his wish to not be taken alive. Whatever they were doesn't change the fact that the police had an arranged ambush site. They didn't even try to take them when they first stopped because they wanted to steer them into the ambush site. Road block and agents hiding in trees is an ambush. And, the guy had his hands up when shot - I guarantee that! As for having a gun, I guess we'll just take that on word. Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
On Guard for Thee Posted January 31, 2016 Report Posted January 31, 2016 Whatever they were doesn't change the fact that the police had an arranged ambush site. They didn't even try to take them when they first stopped because they wanted to steer them into the ambush site. Road block and agents hiding in trees is an ambush. And, the guy had his hands up when shot - I guarantee that! As for having a gun, I guess we'll just take that on word. You realize you make absolutely no sense? If they had just got out of the truck at stop A and not all of a sudden raced to stop B, they would have been fine. Racing away and then trying to run a roadblock is hardly being ambushed. Then making movements that could clearly signal going for a gun, especially when it is well known you are armed, is kinda asking for it don't ya think? Hopefully the other dolts still at the building will wise up and surrender without more violence. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted February 1, 2016 Report Posted February 1, 2016 An interesting subplot to the standoff and the Government's response: That article was, in fact, a followup to a previous story he wrote that was titled, “The Clintons: How Putin grabbed a fifth of all U.S. uranium.” And in the most recent, he simply looked at the information he presented in the first – how a deal approved under Hillary Clinton while she was secretary of state transferred 20 percent of U.S. uranium production to Russia – and tied it to the geographical location of a proposed uranium mine in Oregon. I heard this "conspiracy" about a week ago, and discounted it........until a friend forwarded me this four year old story: Sprawling Malheur County could soon be in the spotlight as a mining hub -- or a battleground of uranium and gold mining interests vs. environmentalists trying to protect its lonesome sagebrush landscape. furthermore: Calico Resources would take a dramatically different approach, said Andrew Bentz of Ontario, spokesman for Calico. The company proposes to sink an 850-foot underground shaft or tunnel to remove 1,000 tons of ore per day from Grassy Mountain, he said. The operation expects to remove at least 425,000 ounces of gold from the mountain. The company's investment and exploration costs probably will total $100 million before mining begins, said Calico project manager Andy Gaudielle. Mineral-bearing rock would be milled for microscopic gold in a closed chemical process that wouldn't include the bird-attracting open settling ponds of diluted cyanide that worried Newmont's opponents, said Bentz, a retired Malheur County sheriff. In addition: In addition to the Oregon Department of Geology and Mineral Industries, the Oregon Energy Facility Siting Council, the U.S. Department of Energy and the federal Environmental Protection Agency must review the uranium mine. BLM permits will be required for tailing piles and the use of desert roads for both the uranium and gold mining. So we have uranium mining, by a Canadian company partially owned by Putin, in addition to a proposed gold mine that employs the former county sheriff, all relying upon leases granted by the BLM, who's local offices are in the refuge...In addition, alleged collusion between the county judge and his cousin that works for BLM.............I wonder if the Bundy gang really do/did have evidence of corruption as they claim......sounds like a plot for a movie with Steven Seagal... Quote
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