Argus Posted January 27, 2016 Report Posted January 27, 2016 How is that? I agree. You write like an enthusiastic supporter of the cause. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Derek 2.0 Posted January 27, 2016 Report Posted January 27, 2016 I agree. You write like an enthusiastic supporter of the cause. Where? Quote? Quote
ReeferMadness Posted January 28, 2016 Report Posted January 28, 2016 Ammon Bundy says party's over boys. The beer is gone, someone ate all the chips and the dip got spilled on the couch. Time to go home. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
On Guard for Thee Posted January 28, 2016 Report Posted January 28, 2016 Ammon Bundy says party's over boys. The beer is gone, someone ate all the chips and the dip got spilled on the couch. Time to go home. DAMN! Between Trump/Palin in Washington,and the rubes in Oregon we had a theatrical mix of comedy and tragedy. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted January 28, 2016 Report Posted January 28, 2016 Ammon Bundy says party's over boys. The beer is gone, someone ate all the chips and the dip got spilled on the couch. Time to go home. Not yet, from their live feed, the group guarding the entrance are sitting around a fire, praying, drinking beer and smoking pot Quote
ReeferMadness Posted January 28, 2016 Report Posted January 28, 2016 Not yet, from their live feed, the group guarding the entrance are sitting around a fire, praying, drinking beer and smoking pot Not a huge surprise that this bunch is hanging around after the party's over. No doubt they'll be jimmying the liquor cabinet and will pass out in the garage. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted January 29, 2016 Report Posted January 29, 2016 Ryan Bundy was shot with non life threatening injuries and LaVoy Finicum (The old guy with the tarp) was killed.........from the one of the groups live feeds (take that for what you will), Finicum was unarmed, shot twice in the chest with hands up, and three times on the ground by FBI.....this all during a traffic stop by State Police and FBI, well the group was going to another public meeting. ---------- Now the FBI has surrounded the refuge and the remaining members inside, who've said they won't surrender.......and apparently, members of the Oregon and Idaho militias are inbound.......could get really nasty. The FBI has released the video of the incident. It doesn't appear to support the group's claims. And where are those Oregon and Idaho militia??? Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
kimmy Posted January 29, 2016 Report Posted January 29, 2016 The FBI has released the video of the incident. It doesn't appear to support the group's claims. And where are those Oregon and Idaho militia??? For those who don't feel like watching the white Ford Bronco drive around, you can skip to 9:00 to see the roadblock where Finicum drives the truck into a snow-bank, gets out of the vehicle, and starts running. Yes, his hands are up at first, but they don't stay up. He definitely appears to be trying to get something from his belt which is when the feds shoot him. This is a guy who carried a holstered revolver in many pictures and was known to have said he'd rather die than be taken prisoner, so I don't think you can blame the feds for shooting when his hands come down and start reaching around his waist. -k Quote (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
Derek 2.0 Posted January 29, 2016 Report Posted January 29, 2016 The FBI has released the video of the incident. It doesn't appear to support the group's claims. Actually it does (to an extent), well disproving the above McConnell claim without a doubt......first it shows Finicum with his hands up and being shot, then shot again on the ground (officers on the bottom of the screen, one with an M4). Though he can be seen flinching and reaching for his left lower side with his right hand, I wonder if at that point he'd already been shot and was reacting or injured in the crash.........not a likely move for drawing an automatic handgun (as the FBI claimed to find on him), as cross (cavalry) drawing is a thing of the past and intended for wheel guns....the autopsy report and investigation of the police shooting should release more details.........none the less, running after being pulled over (and nearly creaming the agent in the snow bank) is a sure fire way to receive a Darwin Award. I'm surprised with them unloading into the truck, only Ryan Bundy received a shoulder wound though. And where are those Oregon and Idaho militia??? Apparently, both Pacific Patriot Network, 3%ers and Oathkeepers issued a stand-by order, waiting on further details. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted January 29, 2016 Report Posted January 29, 2016 Yes, his hands are up at first, but they don't stay up. He definitely appears to be trying to get something from his belt which is when the feds shoot him. Right hand across his body to the left side? None the less, after nearly creaming a Trooper in the Snow bank with the truck, hands out the window is the correct answer.... Quote
ReeferMadness Posted January 29, 2016 Report Posted January 29, 2016 Actually it does (to an extent), well disproving the above McConnell claim without a doubt......first it shows Finicum with his hands up and being shot, then shot again on the ground (officers on the bottom of the screen, one with an M4). Though he can be seen flinching and reaching for his left lower side with his right hand, I wonder if at that point he'd already been shot and was reacting or injured in the crash.........not a likely move for drawing an automatic handgun (as the FBI claimed to find on him), as cross (cavalry) drawing is a thing of the past and intended for wheel guns....the autopsy report and investigation of the police shooting should release more details........ I'm surprised with them unloading into the truck, only Ryan Bundy received a shoulder wound though. I'm not sure how you can tell he flinches. I see his hands up, they go down and he appears to reach into his pockets a couple of times. That's what the FBI reported and that's how it looks. Then he falls. Don't forget this is a guy who proclaimed publicly he would die at the refuge before he went to jail. We'll see what the autopsy says. .none the less, running after being pulled over (and nearly creaming the agent in the snow bank) is a sure fire way to receive a Darwin Award. When I saw this video, I couldn't help but think the FBI and the OSP were a model of restraint compared to this incident. Apparently, both Pacific Patriot Network, 3%ers and Oathkeepers issued a stand-by order, waiting on further details. Well, I'm glad they're down there, south of the border. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
kimmy Posted January 29, 2016 Report Posted January 29, 2016 Right hand across his body to the left side? None the less, after nearly creaming a Trooper in the Snow bank with the truck, hands out the window is the correct answer.... It looks to me like both of his hands are trying to get something out of his belt. His right hand is down there as well. Regardless. He led the police on a chase, tried to drive around a road-block, ran from his vehicle after it became stuck, and started grabbing around for something on his belt. They had strong reason to believe he was armed, and given his statements about refusing to be taken alive, I think they had plenty of justification for shooting as soon as he took his hands down. If this was a black kid in a city instead of an old white dude in the country, I'm pretty sure most "law and order" types would agree. -k Quote (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 29, 2016 Report Posted January 29, 2016 I'm waiting for the Black Lives Matter protests for this "old white dude".....should be any day now....national headlines for sure. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Derek 2.0 Posted January 29, 2016 Report Posted January 29, 2016 It looks to me like both of his hands are trying to get something out of his belt. His right hand is down there as well. Well stumbling.....and wouldn't grabbing for an injured body part be a natural reaction? Regardless. He led the police on a chase, tried to drive around a road-block, ran from his vehicle after it became stuck, and started grabbing around for something on his belt. They had strong reason to believe he was armed, and given his statements about refusing to be taken alive, I think they had plenty of justification for shooting as soon as he took his hands down. If this was a black kid in a city instead of an old white dude in the country, I'm pretty sure most "law and order" types would agree. -k My question, why did he run? After he is shot, and the helicopter starts circling, you can see what appears to be a bullet hole on the drivers side windshield.....LEO's wouldn't fire into an empty driver seat, and they wouldn't fire into the stuck truck with other LEO's backstopping it.........so he was shot at either as he closed on the roadblock (Darwin move by police attempting to kill an oncoming driver) or was shot at when he was stopped prior for several minutes, when you can see his hands out the drivers side window........ Not justification, but if you were parked and shot at, what would you do after crapping yourself? Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted January 29, 2016 Report Posted January 29, 2016 I'm waiting for the Black Lives Matter protests for this "old white dude".....should be any day now....national headlines for sure. And the rioting and looting Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted January 29, 2016 Report Posted January 29, 2016 I'm not sure how you can tell he flinches. I see his hands up, they go down and he appears to reach into his pockets a couple of times. That's what the FBI reported and that's how it looks. Then he falls. By flinch, I'm referring to the same movement........right handed guy reaches to his left side to get a gun even though he is shown to wear it on the right side? Right handed guy reaches to his left side after being injured or shot seconds earlier well walking through deep snow? Quote
biotk Posted January 29, 2016 Report Posted January 29, 2016 Actually it does (to an extent), well disproving the above McConnell claim without a doubt McConnell's claim was almost completely correct. The story by Bundy and others was almost completely incorrect. first it shows Finicum with his hands up and being shot His hands were not up when he was shot. He hands were around the inside coat pocket area where his loaded 9mm was. I'm surprised with them unloading into the truck, only Ryan Bundy received a shoulder wound though. How many injuries would normally be expected from the unloading of cs sponges, flash bangs and pepper spray rounds? Quote
ReeferMadness Posted January 29, 2016 Report Posted January 29, 2016 Not justification, but if you were parked and shot at, what would you do after crapping yourself? Hard to say. I wouldn't run away after being pulled over and if I tried to run a roadblock, I would be so amazed to still be alive that I might do just about anything. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted January 29, 2016 Report Posted January 29, 2016 My question, why did he run? After he is shot, and the helicopter starts circling, you can see what appears to be a bullet hole on the drivers side windshield.....LEO's wouldn't fire into an empty driver seat, and they wouldn't fire into the stuck truck with other LEO's backstopping it.........so he was shot at either as he closed on the roadblock (Darwin move by police attempting to kill an oncoming driver) or was shot at when he was stopped prior for several minutes, when you can see his hands out the drivers side window........ My interpretation was that he was first shot when he fell and after he lowered his hands and rummaged through his pockets. But I'll wait for the official investigation. If he was hit before he ran through the snow, he couldn't have been hit badly. It's not easy running in deep snow even if you haven't been shot.... Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Derek 2.0 Posted January 29, 2016 Report Posted January 29, 2016 McConnell's claim was almost completely correct. The story by Bundy and others was almost completely incorrect. Didn't McConnell claim to witness it from his jeep and state Finicum charged police as Ammon Bundy was on the ground being detained? The guy is full of shit. His hands were not up when he was shot. He hands were around the inside coat pocket area where his loaded 9mm was. They were still up when he was on the ground dead. How many injuries would normally be expected from the unloading of cs sponges, flash bangs and pepper spray rounds? Did Ryan Bundy receive a gun shot wound from nonlethal devices? Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted January 29, 2016 Report Posted January 29, 2016 My interpretation was that he was first shot when he fell and after he lowered his hands and rummaged through his pockets. But I'll wait for the official investigation. Reaching to his lower left side, well twisting right with his knees bent? I too want to see the autopsy report. If he was hit before he ran through the snow, he couldn't have been hit badly. It's not easy running in deep snow even if you haven't been shot.... How is that? If he was shot when he was first parked, seconds before crashing the truck and being killed, or even if shot by police at the roadblock, he'd be in shock.......as you can clearly count in the snow, he only made a handful of steps well favoring his left side, with his hands up, then reaches to his side after stumbling (about 9:30 mark)....... Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted January 29, 2016 Report Posted January 29, 2016 Hard to say. I wouldn't run away after being pulled over and if I tried to run a roadblock, I would be so amazed to still be alive that I might do just about anything. Would you run away after being shot or shot at? Quote
biotk Posted January 29, 2016 Report Posted January 29, 2016 Didn't McConnell claim to witness it from his jeep No, McConnell stated that neither he nor Ammon could see what happened because while they were being detained on the ground, LeVoy took off fleeing the LEOs. He stated that 2 people in Levoy's vehicle stated that he charged out the vehicle towards the cops as soon as his vehicle was stuck. He was wrong about the charging at the cops, but that is what the passengers thought happened. Levoy was certainly not on his knees with his hands up. They were still up when he was on the ground dead. His hands were not up from 9:27/9:28 onward. He didn't fall to the ground until 9:33. Did Ryan Bundy receive a gun shot wound from nonlethal devices? No, Ryan Bundy did not receive a gun shot wound from a nonlethal device. But there has been no confirmation that the superficial injury that Bundy received was from a gun shot. Quote
biotk Posted January 29, 2016 Report Posted January 29, 2016 My question, why did he run? After he is shot, and the helicopter starts circling, you can see what appears to be a bullet hole on the drivers side windshield.....LEO's wouldn't fire into an empty driver seat, and they wouldn't fire into the stuck truck with other LEO's backstopping it.........so he was shot at either as he closed on the roadblock (Darwin move by police attempting to kill an oncoming driver) or was shot at when he was stopped prior for several minutes, when you can see his hands out the drivers side window........ Not justification, but if you were parked and shot at, what would you do after crapping yourself? If there is a hole on the drivers side windshield when the helicopter starts circling (I have not seen one) then the most likely explanation was the subsequent use of non-lethal devices - sponge projectiles with oc to disorientate the passengers in a vehicle that had both fled the LEOs and had several loaded weapons. Aiming at the empty driver seat is the most logical choice to reduce the chances of injuries. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted January 29, 2016 Report Posted January 29, 2016 No, McConnell stated that neither he nor Ammon could see what happened because while they were being detained on the ground, LeVoy took off fleeing the LEOs. He stated that 2 people in Levoy's vehicle stated that he charged out the vehicle towards the cops as soon as his vehicle was stuck. He was wrong about the charging at the cops, but that is what the passengers thought happened. Levoy was certainly not on his knees with his hands up. No, he was on his back with his hands up.............I wonder why McConnell wasn't charged with anything? His hands were not up from 9:27/9:28 onward. He didn't fall to the ground until 9:33. And your point? They were up/away from is body when he was shot a second time on the ground........and motionless with his hand away from his body, as he was still being targeted minutes later, evident by the lasers painting his body (13:20 second mark)... No, Ryan Bundy did not receive a gun shot wound from a nonlethal device. But there has been no confirmation that the superficial injury that Bundy received was from a gun shot. Other than what was stated by the FBI to the press.... Quote
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