On Guard for Thee Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 Exactly! So, why the panic. Build a retaining wall, canals, breakwater - whatever. And...if it is not good enough for some people....move. Who's panicking? Just ignore the problem and hope it goes away. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 Canada is ranked last in coastal water protections....instead, some choose to worry about Florida or New York instead. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
On Guard for Thee Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 Canada is ranked last in coastal water protections....instead, some choose to worry about Florida or New York instead. Take away the tanker traffic, don't need all that much protection. Quote
ReeferMadness Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 So, the Kinder Morgan deal isn't dead, it's just sleeping. “I’m optimistic we will satisfy the conditions,” Anderson said. “Clearly we have more work to do … (but) it’s not over until I’ve got the NEB decision. We continue to make progress.” Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
On Guard for Thee Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 So, the Kinder Morgan deal isn't dead, it's just sleeping.That's true, the local CBC radio was reporting, not long after the announcement of the provincial governments concerns, that KM was proceeding to attempt to provide further proposals that would meet the 5 conditions the earlier proposal failed to meet. Quote
overthere Posted January 12, 2016 Author Report Posted January 12, 2016 Yup. It was built at a time when nobody thought that pipelines would spill massive amounts of oil, when nobody knew just how toxic the sludge was, before there was any such thing as dilbit. There's no reason for other provinces to accept the risk of toxic sludge being spilled into their environment. At today's price points, you can barely give away tar sands oil. The original pipeline, and the big expansion done about 15 years ago, have the same record of tanker spills: zero. Or put another way: none at all. But we're wasting pixels here. What BC wants from Alberta is money, and AB does not have any. The environment is secondary at best, if the hypocrites in BC has any care for Mommy Earth they would not be exporting billions of dollars in filthy coal every year. Oh , and isn't there an election next year? There is absolutely nothing that Kinder Morgan or any corporation could say or do that would get approval. Well, if they could promise to deliver votes they could get approval. So, KM is dead, Gateway is dead,and Energy East is nearly done like dinner too with Sellinger, Wynne and Couilliard against, and Trudeau silent while he watches the polls instead of watching the trade balance sheet. Mass insanity. Quote Science too hard for you? Try religion!
msj Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 Spoken like a person who wants to sell WCS at $17 (current price) like there is no tomorrow. The price will come back. Pipelines will get built. Relax, sometimes it's better for the oil to stay in the ground for a little while. It can always be extracted and sold in the future (at better prices). Quote If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist) My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx
Argus Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 <forehead-palm> If you bothered to read my post, you would know that South Florida is built on porous limestone. There are no known shoreline defenses that will protect it. The water will seep under the shoreline defenses and up through the storm drains (as it does today at high tides). Note to Moderators: Should there be a requirement that people actually read a post before they respond?? You don't seem to have read his post which pointed out sea levels haven't changed in Miami in over 50 years. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 Environmentalists have no need to bait and switch, they can simply refer to scientific research. Now the naysayers, that's a different kettle of fish. They can't refer to economics, though, since nothing they come up with makes any economic sense. And none of them can explain who anything Canada does can even begin to offset the massive increases in CO2 India and China are pumping out. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 This topic is predicated on how pipelines make climate change worse and it will hit Florida hard. Pipelines have absolutely nothing to do with climate change. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
overthere Posted January 12, 2016 Author Report Posted January 12, 2016 Spoken like a person who wants to sell WCS at $17 (current price) like there is no tomorrow. The price will come back. Pipelines will get built. And when the price does come back, will Canada be in a position to deliver oil to offshore customers? The answer is a resounding 'no'. The people who pay for the pipelines to be built are ready and willing to spend their money right now, and we are still doing...... nothing. Well actually we are telling investors in our base industries to go f*** themselves. They'll get the message soon enough that this country is not open for business. Quote Science too hard for you? Try religion!
The_Squid Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 We've already been selling oil like gangbusters with the price high. Billions of dollars of investment by oil companies. Why would that change suddenly? Resource sectors are boom/bust... has always been like this. Why do people forget this? And why is the sky falling? Oh wait... Notley... it's the NDP's fault... and BC's... and Suzuki's... Quote
msj Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 The people who pay for the pipelines to be built are ready and willing to spend their money right now, and we are still doing...... nothing. No, we, the people, as represented by Christy Clark in Victoria, for example, expect the government to hold the O&G industry to certain standards. This will mean some pipelines will get built while others don't because some companies prefer to invest in whine management. Quote If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist) My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx
ReeferMadness Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 They can't refer to economics, though, since nothing they come up with makes any economic sense. Ah - economics. ekka gnaw mix Economics is what told Alberta to stop building refineries, which provide stable, good paying jobs to well educated professionals and concentrate on digging toxic sludge out of the tar sands, diluting it with even more toxic solvent and shipping it as fast as they could. And anyone who could stomach enough schooling to get a pipe-fitters ticket and is willing to live in (or commute to) Fort Mac can earn 200K a year. Economics is what drove the madness of people living in Newfoundland and commuting to Alberta for work. Maybe if you guys had hung on for the rest of the economics course, you would have seen the part where oil is a volatile commodity and when prices go down, those trades people find themselves earning $500 a week on pogey - until it runs out. And none of them can explain who anything Canada does can even begin to offset the massive increases in CO2 India and China are pumping out. I can explain that. It's ekka gnaw mix again! Back when globalization was an emerging phenomenon, progressive groups like the Council of Canadians pointed out that manufacturing would naturally move to the places on earth where labour and environmental standards were lowest, and this would hold down those standards in the developed world. And of course right wing economists (what other kind are there, really) poo-pooed the idea. But that's exactly what happened. Economics is what has moved the production of our cheap crap to India and China and since it is so price sensitive, they need to generate their electricity in the absolutely cheapest way possible. Coal. And here is the kicker. The CO2 emissions generated by those massive freighters that haul cheap crap here and haul toxic "recycling" waste back accrue to nobody!! In the Paris accord, nobody is responsible for ocean going traffic. It's actually VERY easy to fix. Just use ekka gnaw mix. Apply a carbon price at the source. Every scoop of sludge from the tar sands, every barrel of oil at the wellhead, every BTU of natural gas (whether it's captured or vented), every bucket of coal dug out of the ground is taxed. Then suddenly, it's not so cheap to get all the manufacturing done in China and the world rights itself. The fix is easy but the right wingers don't have the intestinal fortitude to confront it. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
overthere Posted January 12, 2016 Author Report Posted January 12, 2016 No, we, the people, as represented by Christy Clark in Victoria, for example, expect the government to hold the O&G industry to certain standards. This will mean some pipelines will get built while others don't because some companies prefer to invest in whine management. The disapproval has nothing to do with standards. Surely you are not that simple? Quote Science too hard for you? Try religion!
ReeferMadness Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 You don't seem to have read his post which pointed out sea levels haven't changed in Miami in over 50 years. I don't think he wrote such a thing - in fact he said that sea level in Miami would likely be 3 feet higher in 2100. It doesn't matter - I won't waste time debating people who believe the world is flat. If you think the sea level has changed in 50 years, go gather some actual information before you come back. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
msj Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 The disapproval has nothing to do with standards. Surely you are not that simple? To the extent that it fails to meet standards that the government thinks the voters will, or will not, accept, then, yes, I do think it is that simple. I'm a voter in BC and while I will never accept the Northern Gateway pipeline (unless it involves refined products) but I am willing to accept certain pipelines from certain operators under certain conditions. The BC Liberals know this and play the political game very well. Quote If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist) My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx
overthere Posted January 12, 2016 Author Report Posted January 12, 2016 Economics is what told Alberta to stop building refineries, which provide stable, good paying jobs Clueless. There haven't been any refineries built anywhere in Canada for a quarter century except... we will get to that. Refineries are almost always built locally (globally) to service local needs, while crude is shipped by pipeline and tanker. AB has three operating refineries now, and five upgraders. And hey guess what? A big refinery/upgrader is being built right now outside Edmonton in Sturgeon County. It will turn bitumen into diesel and should be running in about a year. It will produce diesel mostly which is in short supply. A major partner is the AB govt, which will use bitumen supplied toi them as 'payment-in-kind' , instead of royalites, as feedstock. Why doesn't BC 'build a refinery'? You can use the 800K bbl per day coming on the new KM, think of all those stable, well paid jobs. Quote Science too hard for you? Try religion!
msj Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 Clueless. Not sure why you have to be so insulting when you presumably want to discuss issues with other people.... Quote If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist) My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx
ReeferMadness Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 And when the price does come back, will Canada be in a position to deliver oil to offshore customers? The answer is a resounding 'no'. Hopefully, that's the case. Albertans are clever enough to do more than dig toxic sludge out of the ground, dilute it with solvents and pack it in a pipeline. Or are you saying they're all stupid? The people who pay for the pipelines to be built are ready and willing to spend their money right now, and we are still doing...... nothing. spend their money now..... that's all that matters to some people. Do you know what happens when dilbit is dumped in water? The people in Kalamazoo, Michigan found out the hard way. Water from the usually tame creek had inundated his yard, the way it often did after heavy rains. But this time a black goo coated swaths of his golf course-green grass. It stopped just 10 feet from the metal cap that marked his drinking water well. Walking on the tarry mess was like stepping on chewing gum. LaForge said he was stooped over the creek, looking for the source of the gunk, when two men in a white truck marked Enbridge pulled up just before 10 a.m. One rushed to LaForge's open front door and disappeared inside with an air-monitoring instrument. The man emerged less than a minute later, and uttered the words that still haunt LaForge today: It's not safe to be here. You're going to have to leave your house. Now. It separates as the lighter solvent floats and evaporates, leaving the heavier sludge to sink beneath the waves. Enbridge is spending over a billion dollars dredging ponds, creeks and rivers around Kalamazoo cleaning up a 1 million gallon spill. If a supertanker carrying 80 million gallons of dilbit goes down in the Strait of Georgia, the beaches of Vancouver and Victoria would probably be fouled permanently. Property values would be destroyed. Cancer rates would go up. Sludge would be washing up for decades, if not centuries. If you sold all of the tar sands oil tomorrow, you couldn't fix it. Are you going to come out and dredge the Strait of Georgia? Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 To the extent that it fails to meet standards that the government thinks the voters will, or will not, accept, then, yes, I do think it is that simple. I'm a voter in BC and while I will never accept the Northern Gateway pipeline (unless it involves refined products) but I am willing to accept certain pipelines from certain operators under certain conditions. The BC Liberals know this and play the political game very well. I don't think anyone should be shipping dilbit anywhere. Period. If they can't refine it in Alberta, leave it in the ground. Look at the nightmare in Kalamazoo. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 Pipelines have absolutely nothing to do with climate change. And sex has nothing to do with babies. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 We've already been selling oil like gangbusters with the price high. Billions of dollars of investment by oil companies. Why would that change suddenly? Resource sectors are boom/bust... has always been like this. Why do people forget this? And why is the sky falling? Oh wait... Notley... it's the NDP's fault... and BC's... and Suzuki's... Yeah - and then they presume to lecture people on economics. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
TimG Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) I don't think anyone should be shipping dilbit anywhere. Period. If they can't refine it in Alberta, leave it in the ground. Look at the nightmare in Kalamazoo.You are showing your ignorance again. Crude is a relative stable and flexible form of hydrocarbons which makes it safer to transport than most refined product. On top of that refined product would require many more pipelines to get the product to market which would multiply the higher risk associated with more volatile products. As for Kalamazoo, a single failure is not a reason to abandon a technology. If that was the case nothing new would ever be built. The question is how to manage pipelines to ensure such an incident does not happen again. Edited January 12, 2016 by TimG Quote
ReeferMadness Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 You are showing your ignorance again. Crude is a relative stable and flexible form of hydrocarbons which makes it safer to transport than most refined product. On top of that refined product would require many more pipelines to get the product to market which would multiply the higher risk associated with more volatile products. Again - you don't bother to read what I wrote. Why even bother with your idiotic response? Stop wasting my time until you go and read what happened in Kalamazoo. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
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