Long Form Census

ToadBrother · November 6, 2015

Nobody is saying that they don't need data and statistics to make better decisions.

The question is whether the mandatory long-form census was the best or only way to gather that information.

There are many sources of data... short form census, unemployment figures, government revenue/taxation, bankruptcy rates, building permits issued, etc. All of which give economic and demographic information that can be used for making policy decisions.

Which numerous experts have said is insufficient.

Is there some reason I should accept your statement over theirs'?

Big Guy · November 6, 2015

Nobody is saying that they don't need data and statistics to make better decisions.

The question is whether the mandatory long-form census was the best or only way to gather that information.

There are many sources of data... short form census, unemployment figures, government revenue/taxation, bankruptcy rates, building permits issued, etc. All of which give economic and demographic information that can be used for making policy decisions.

Then just give one or two.

One or two cases where the additional accuracy of the long form census is critical in making decisions that affect significant numbers of people, where the short form is not accurate enough, and other sources won't work.

I'm not saying they don't exist. I just haven't seen any evidence for it (yet).

Unfortunately what is "critical" or not will depend on your attitude towards the form.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/we-havent-forgotten-the-long-form-census/article22819338/

I believe the scientists.

segnosaur · November 6, 2015

Here's some really basic reasons that municpalities and provinces will use it for:

Planning schools.

Municipalities should already have an idea of educational needs based on the short form census (which provides the number of school age children in a household), building permits issued (which indicates which areas are growing in size) and trends at other schools in the area.

Planning public transportation and infrastructure needs in the future.

Again, building permits and short-form census will already give population distribution. In addition, traffic studies (which are currently done) will indicate infrastructure needs.

Planning health infrastructure like care homes and hospitals. Which ones need to be expanded? Which ones can be eliminated?

Short-form census gives ages, which will give us an idea of the aging of the population. And looking at things like the usage of current care homes and hospitals will indicate the general direction and whether we need an expansion of services or not.

SpankyMcFarland · November 7, 2015

Bill C-51 infringes upon our privacy.

Accolades for the long form census, which you are required to fill out or go to jail.

The hypocrisy is strong.

I have the opposite take on that. The intrusion into our privacy posed by the long-form census is clearly delineated and is balanced by the benefit it brings to us. However, government surveillance as typified by C-51 seems to have no proper oversight at all and its full extent is only revealed when there are leaks like Snowden's, mainly from other countries. As far as I can tell, the threat posed to my privacy by such surveillance is much greater than that of the census.

How many people will go to jail for not filling in the census, do you think?

Edited November 7, 2015 by SpankyMcFarland

drummindiver · November 7, 2015

I have the opposite take on that. The intrusion into our privacy posed by the long-form census is clearly delineated and is balanced by the benefit it brings to us. However, government surveillance as typified by C-51 seems to have no proper oversight at all and its full extent is only revealed when there are leaks like Snowden's, mainly from other countries. As far as I can tell, the threat posed to my privacy by such surveillance is much greater than that of the census.

How many people will go to jail for not filling in the census, do you think?

According to some on here, jails have been built to hold convicts of crimes such as this.

You look at it in a very Liberal fashion.

I see Bill C51 as a means of keeping us safe and terrorists in jail, LFC as an intrusion into our lives.

You see LFC as necessary and citizens should go to jail if they don't comply. But lets not infringe upon the rights of terrorists.

I'd rather we concentrated on jailing terrorists than citizens who didn't fill out paper work.

The_Squid · November 7, 2015

According to some on here, jails have been built to hold convicts of crimes such as this.

You look at it in a very Liberal fashion.

I see Bill C51 as a means of keeping us safe and terrorists in jail, LFC as an intrusion into our lives.

You see LFC as necessary and citizens should go to jail if they don't comply. But lets not infringe upon the rights of terrorists.

I'd rather we concentrated on jailing terrorists than citizens who didn't fill out paper work.

You claim that the census is too much intrusion into people's privacy.... yet, you don't claim the same thing about C51, which is much more of an intrusion. Your opinion doesn't seem very consistent.

And you have to use hyperbole to try and make your point. Please point out where anyone has gone to jail for not filling out the census.

drummindiver · November 7, 2015

You claim that the census is too much intrusion into people's privacy.... yet, you don't claim the same thing about C51, which is much more of an intrusion. Your opinion doesn't seem very consistent.

And you have to use hyperbole to try and make your point. Please point out where anyone has gone to jail for not filling out the census.

You use partisan rhetoric and alarmist hyperbole.. Show where C51 has been improperly used.

One is used to combat criminals and send them to jail.

One is used to combat citizens not bending to the will of the government.

We know which you prefer.

Edited November 7, 2015 by drummindiver

The_Squid · November 7, 2015

You use partisan rhetoric and alarmist hyperbole.. Show where C51 has been improperly used.

One is used to combat criminals and send them to jail.

One is used to combat citizens not bending to the will of the government.

We know which you prefer.

So no one has gone to jail for not filling out the forms? Despite the fact you said people are thrown in jail? That's hyperbole.

"Combat citizens" with a census form? What does that even mean???

drummindiver · November 7, 2015

So no one has gone to jail for not filling out the forms? Despite the fact you said people are thrown in jail? That's hyperbole.

"Combat citizens" with a census form? What does that even mean???

Dude(?) Please show me where I've said anybody has gone to jail.

Again, one is used to to throw citizens in jail who don't comply. Is that better?

And anyone gone to jail wrongly for Bill C51? No? That's because it's alarmist rhetoric.

The_Squid · November 7, 2015

Dude(?) Please show me where I've said anybody has gone to jail.

Again, one is used to to throw citizens in jail who don't comply. Is that better?

And anyone gone to jail wrongly for Bill C51? No? That's because it's alarmist rhetoric.

Please show where anyone has gone to jail for not complying.

drummindiver · November 7, 2015

"Combat citizens" with a census form? What does that even mean???

What are you asking me here?

To combat criminals you have no problem with.

To combat citizens you are confused?

Are you Poeing me now?

drummindiver · November 7, 2015

Please show where anyone has gone to jail for not complying.

lol

Please show me where I stated ppl have gone to jail.

You can't, because I didn't.

You certainly can go to jail for not filling out your LFC.

You can go to jail for being a terrorist, but only after the fact if you had your way of rescinding C51

Again and still, you are more concerned about the rights of criminals than for citizens.

SpankyMcFarland · November 7, 2015

According to some on here, jails have been built to hold convicts of crimes such as this.

You look at it in a very Liberal fashion.

I see Bill C51 as a means of keeping us safe and terrorists in jail, LFC as an intrusion into our lives.

You see LFC as necessary and citizens should go to jail if they don't comply. But lets not infringe upon the rights of terrorists.

I'd rather we concentrated on jailing terrorists than citizens who didn't fill out paper work.

Do you really think we are going to see Snowden-like revelations about massive misuse of census data down the road, as we have seen with CSIS surveillance of citizens already? To me, the threats are not even remotely comparable. We have a security establishment within this country that is not accountable to Parliament and snoops on us as it sees fit. It has also allegedly designed software that, in conjunction with GCHQ, has been used to spy on businesses across Europe, in countries like Belgium and Ireland, that have no discernible links with terrorism at all. The situation should be of serious concern to any sensible person.

BTW we are talking about this in a forum where CSIS could easily be spying on us right now. Of course, I fear CSIS far more than the census.

drummindiver · November 7, 2015

Do you really think we are going to see Snowden-like revelations about massive misuse of census data down the road, as we have seen with CSIS surveillance of citizens already? To me, the threats are not even remotely comparable. We have a security establishment within this country that is not accountable to Parliament and snoops on us as it sees fit. It has also allegedly designed software that, in conjunction with GCHQ, has been used to spy on businesses across Europe, in countries like Belgium and Ireland, that have no discernible links with terrorism at all. The situation should be of serious concern to any sensible person.

BTW we are talking about this in a forum where CSIS could easily be spying on us right now. Of course, I fear CSIS far more than the census.

I personally don't care about the information being gathered. That is not the point. If, as a citizen of this country, I am busy and don't have time to fill out the LFC, I can be jailed.

You are ok with this.

Yet you are not ok with a federal agency being able to protect you and your family because you think they might read something you posted on Mapleleafweb and swoop in to arrest you?

And you find that sensible?

poochy · November 8, 2015

Please show where anyone has gone to jail for not complying.

Probably no more than the proportion of the millions of Canadians who smoked weed under those evil conservatives.

drummindiver · November 8, 2015

Perhaps you can enlighten me, because, in general, StatsCan's statisticians have repeatedly said the long form census is not only useful but essential, and one would think that they, like statisticians working in any field, know the level of non-compliance and intentional falsification. But hey, you clearly know more than they do, as you do on so many topics on which you will reject experts' views.

Geez, statisticians saying their job is useful.

SpankyMcFarland · November 8, 2015

I personally don't care about the information being gathered. That is not the point. If, as a citizen of this country, I am busy and don't have time to fill out the LFC, I can be jailed.

You are ok with this.

Yet you are not ok with a federal agency being able to protect you and your family because you think they might read something you posted on Mapleleafweb and swoop in to arrest you?

And you find that sensible?

So you fear a paper form more than a large government agency devoted to mass surveillance and completely unaccountable to Parliament? What can I say? The attitude of self-described conservatives on this issue is a real eye opener. There seems to be no concern about liberty and privacy from many of them. If the government wants it, who are we to question seems to be their attitude, except when it comes to the census for some barmy reason.

drummindiver · November 8, 2015

So you fear a paper form more than a large government agency devoted to mass surveillance and completely unaccountable to Parliament? What can I say? The attitude of self-described conservatives on this issue is a real eye opener. There seems to be no concern about liberty and privacy from many of them. If the government wants it, who are we to question seems to be their attitude, except when it comes to the census for some barmy reason.

Again, Bill-51 is run by federal agents to put terrorists in jail. If you are not a terrorist, chill and netflix.

LFC can, if not filled out, put otherwise law abiding citizens in jail. The fact that any Canadian is ok with this astounds me.

You can spin it any way you want, but you are defending the rights of terrorists while saying it's ok for the government to jail citizens due to not filling out paperwork.

Incredible.

August1991 · November 9, 2015

People who think that answering a few questions on the LFC is tantamount to Big Brother-style surveillance should be smacked in the face repeatedly with a copy of Bill C-51.

And people who think that the answers on the LFC are accurate will be smacked with a plane into a large building. Edited November 9, 2015 by August1991

SpankyMcFarland · November 9, 2015

Again, Bill-51 is run by federal agents to put terrorists in jail. If you are not a terrorist, chill and netflix.

LFC can, if not filled out, put otherwise law abiding citizens in jail. The fact that any Canadian is ok with this astounds me.

You can spin it any way you want, but you are defending the rights of terrorists while saying it's ok for the government to jail citizens due to not filling out paperwork.

Incredible.

I'll personally sing you a song if anybody goes to jail for the census. If that happened, the happy victim would have instant fame as a martyr of the right for life and would have all sorts of lawyers wanting to help him with his ultimately successful Charter challenge.

A lot of shady people have come out with the line about 'if you are innocent, you have nothing to fear'. It's a sinister claim. I am not a terrorist and yet I fear that privacy as we have understood it for centuries is rapidly disappearing. The information that corporations and governments have about us should be a cause of deep concern for all.

Edited November 9, 2015 by SpankyMcFarland

poochy · November 9, 2015

I'll personally sing you a song if anybody goes to jail for the census.

Then i guess there is no need to legalize marijuana either.

O and so there is too much information available about us already? Sounds like a reason for not needing the long form census. The short form will do fine.