More barbarity in Iraq

[Black Dog]

The killing of an unarmed, wounded Iraqi in a Fallujah mosque was caught on film.

Sites was present when a lieutenant from one of the units asked a Marine what had happened inside the mosque. The Marine replied that there were people inside.

“Did you shoot them?” the lieutenant asked.

“Roger that, sir,” the second Marine replied.

“Were they armed?” the lieutenant asked.

The second Marine shrugged in reply.

Sites saw the five wounded men left behind on Friday still in the mosque. Four of them had been shot again, apparently by members of the squad that entered the mosque moments earlier. One appeared to be dead, and the three others were severely wounded. The fifth man was lying under a blanket, apparently not having been shot a second time.

One of the Marines noticed that one of the severely wounded men was still breathing. He did not appear to be armed, Sites said.

The Marine could be heard insisting: “He’s f---ing faking he’s dead — he’s faking he’s f---ing dead.” Sites then watched as the Marine raised his rifle and fired into the man’s head from point-blank range.

“Well, he’s dead now,” another Marine said.

Is there any doubt that the U.S. is losing the war? Their military superiority has failed to bring about an end to the resistance and atrocities like this will cost them the support of everyday Iraqis.

Incidents like this will prompt further barbarity in response, foster anti-American sentiment and provide terrorists with ample fodder for recruitment.

Like Vietnam, I think this war will cost the U.S. a piece of its soul.

[Guest eureka]

I cannot argue with that, BD. It seems that the US will not learn that wars are won in the end, not by superior weaponry but by troops on the ground and by gaining the trust of the indigenous population.

[Black Dog]

Fallujah 101

We all know what happens to those who ignore the lessons of history.

The United States was once celebrated as a non-colonial, sometimes anti-colonial, power in the Middle East, renowned for more than a century for its educational, medical and charity efforts. Since the Cold War, however, the United States has intervened increasingly in the region’s internal affairs and conflicts. Things have changed fundamentally for the worse with the invasion and occupation of Iraq, particularly with the revelation that the core pretexts offered by the administration for the invasion were false. And particularly with growing Iraqi dissatisfaction with the occupation and with the images of the hellish chaos broadcast regularly everywhere in the world except in the United States—thanks to the excellent job done by the media in keeping the real human costs of Iraq off our television screens.

The United States is perceived as stepping into the boots of Western colonial occupiers, still bitterly remembered from Morocco to Iran. The Bush administration marched into Iraq proclaiming the very best of intentions while stubbornly refusing to understand that in the eyes of most Iraqis and most others in the Middle East it is actions, not proclaimed intentions, that count. It does not matter what you say you are doing in Fallujah, where U.S. troops just launched an attack after weeks of bombing. What matters is what you are doing in Fallujah—and what people see that you are doing.

[Tawasakm]

It might seem naive for the nations of the middle east to celebrate the United States as a non-colonial power. Despite trends toward isolationism (such as at the time that was being referred to - I believe) the US does possess such a history. US actions in Japan (circa Commodore Perry) certainly mirrored British actions in China.

As to the perceptions of indigenes you are no doubt correct. When Wellington moved into France he made sure his armies paid for everything and treated French citizens well. He even had British money melted down and reforged into French money (counterfeit but completely identical). Why? Because half the reason the French had been losing to the British was because of all the troops they had to divert to counter the Spanish partisans. The people had been mistreated and rose against them. That conflict was a terrible, vicious affair.

I was thinking that perhaps they (US soldiers) would do better with Iraqi citizens if they thought of their mission as a peace-keeping force but I realise that I have no idea what the mission statement is for the troops on the ground. Does anyone know? I realise I am revealing my ignorance here (I become more and more aware of how much I don't know every day). I also have to wonder what the majority of Iraqi citizens really think. So hard to get a clear cut picture of life there.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Black Dog,

War is hell, or so they say.

"War is not fought to preserve the enemy." Adolf Hitler.

In Viet Nam the US had used very unofficial 'possum squads' to shoot all wounded VC prisoners in the head. Their rationale was that 'they couldn't treat em, and they couldn't take them with them'. Further, it was not beyond the VC to attack, even when wounded, if they could, and a favorite trick was to boobytrap dead bodies. In Indochina, when the French were still clinging on, the Viet Minh used to slash every throat to ensure there were no survivors after battles.

This does not mean I condone the actions of the marine who (assumably) killed an unarmed, wounded man. If the US claims to be taking the 'high moral road', then they should stick to it, and the soldier should be held accountable. However, the action he did seem to take is, sadly, very common in the history of war.

[August1991]

BD, I refer you to this web site.

As a consequence to this quench, Syria has never witnessed any more protest against the policies of the Syrian government, which were widely disputable before.

I don't know how the Americans will be remembered in Iraq - Falluja or Hama. (No one is suggesting that the Americans killed 30,000 in Falluja so I suspect the Americans will come out as determined but not bloodthirsty.)

BTW, Assad built a hotel over the empty space left. You can see it here. I wouldn't be surprised if the Americans do something similar.

[Stoker]

More barbarity in Iraq.........Indeed

Now in the case of the United States Marine, nothing has been proven (ie that it was infact unjustified), for all we know this could have been a nervous 19 year old that heard the stories (as mentioned above) of booby trapped bodies, wounded terrorists begging for treatment only to pull a pin out of a grenade when the medic came close or this could be the act of a cold blooded killer.

Either way, the soldier is entitled to due process, and because of that, I think casting judgement is premature.

Now Black Dog, will you use the same rancor towards the killers of Margaret Hassan?

[takeanumber]

American conservatives were applauding the execution on talk radio today.

I think that the insurgents are totally breaking the Geneva Convention. Fighting from a Mosque! Come now, we all know that only Italians and Nazi's fight that way. (Italy, gothic line)

Begging for help, and pulling the pin?

Unnacceptable.

That said:

What that soldier did, from the Camera's point of view, was also against the Geneva Convention.

It's sick.

[caesar]

Disgusting; looks like the Americans are taking advantage of their last year of being exempt from war crimes. This like the prison abuse is being accepted and spread by the big brass big wigs; the only ones to suffer will be the scared kids sent to fight this atrocious ??? what is it; no war declared. What in the H are the Ameircans doing there anyhow.

[caesar]

More barbarity in Iraq.........Indeed

Now in the case of the United States Marine, nothing has been proven (ie that it was infact unjustified), for all we know this could have been a nervous 19 year old that heard the stories (as mentioned above) of booby trapped bodies, wounded terrorists begging for treatment only to pull a pin out of a grenade when the medic came close or this could be the act of a cold blooded killer.

Either way, the soldier is entitled to due process, and because of that, I think casting judgement is premature.

Now Black Dog, will you use the same rancor towards the killers of Margaret Hassan?

Okay ostrich; keep you head in the sand.

As for Margaret Hassan; we certainly do condemn that act which was uncalled for and was warned against by the "terrorist leaders" but we don't know who is responsible; I have a bad feeling about this; she is NOT a likely target for terrorist groups.

[Black Dog]

Now in the case of the United States Marine, nothing has been proven (ie that it was infact unjustified), for all we know this could have been a nervous 19 year old that heard the stories (as mentioned above) of booby trapped bodies, wounded terrorists begging for treatment only to pull a pin out of a grenade when the medic came close or this could be the act of a cold blooded killer.

Either way, the soldier is entitled to due process, and because of that, I think casting judgement is premature.

The evidence is right there on tape. There's no fear or hesitation: it's an execution, plain and simple.

Now Black Dog, will you use the same rancor towards the killers of Margaret Hassan?

Hassan's killing was an unconscionable act against an innocent by criminals who should be punished appropriately. The execution of the wounded Iraqi (which, if history is indicator, is just the tip of the iceberg) was perpetrated by an occupying foreign military power in the name of democracy. Both are reprehensible criminal acts, yet you take great pains to excuse and justify one but not the other. Why?

she is NOT a likely target for terrorist groups.

If, for the sake of argument, we accept the official version of events, hassan's death is further proof of the folly underlying the war in Iraq: the lie that the war makes the world safer from terrorism. Hassan lived and worked in Iraq for 30 years, yet came to harm only after the U.S. invasion turned the tide of trust away from foreigners.

[Stoker]

The evidence is right there on tape. There's no fear or hesitation: it's an execution, plain and simple.

Have you ever been in a combat zone? (I haven't) Are you an authority on combat related stress? (I'm not)

Hassan's killing was an unconscionable act against an innocent by criminals who should be punished appropriately. The execution of the wounded Iraqi (which, if history is indicator, is just the tip of the iceberg) was perpetrated by an occupying foreign military power in the name of democracy. Both are reprehensible criminal acts, yet you take great pains to excuse and justify one but not the other. Why?

Where did I excuse the American?

Now in the case of the United States Marine, nothing has been proven (ie that it was infact unjustified), for all we know this could have been a nervous 19 year old that heard the stories (as mentioned above) of booby trapped bodies, wounded terrorists begging for treatment only to pull a pin out of a grenade when the medic came close or this could be the act of a cold blooded killer.

If, for the sake of argument, we accept the official version of events, hassan's death is further proof of the folly underlying the war in Iraq: the lie that the war makes the world safer from terrorism. Hassan lived and worked in Iraq for 30 years, yet came to harm only after the U.S. invasion turned the tide of trust away from foreigners.

Has the United States proper been attacked since 9/11?

[caesar]

Has the United States proper been attacked since 9/11

Did you not read the last part of Osama bin Laden's last tape. He feels he is bringing the USA to defeat just as he did to the USSR;

[caesar]

Has the United States proper been attacked since 9/11

Did you not read the last part of Osama bin Laden's last tape. He feels he is bringing the USA to defeat just as he did to the USSR; spending themselves on an unwinnable situation until they are broke. He may have a weapon that he has the USA using on itself. Already, the American dollar is sinking like a rock. They have the trust and goodwill of very few throughout the world. He is getting them where it hurts.

[Cartman]

Actually, I was surprised that the US was not hit years before 911. There was always news about Israel and other nations being hit, but never the US. Really, what can stop them? But then again, I am VERY surprised that the US has not been hit hard since 911.

[Black Dog]

Where did I excuse the American?

You certainly made every effort to give him the benefit of the doubt. And here I thought it was us lefties who were supposedly "soft on crime".

Meanwhile, let's seee how this is playing in Iraq:

Baghdad Burning

The mosque strewn with bodies of Iraqis- not still with prayer or meditation, but prostrate with death- Some seemingly bloated… an old man with a younger one leaning upon him… legs, feet, hands, blood everywhere… The dusty sun filtering in through the windows… the stillness of the horrid place. Then the stillness is broken- in walk some marines, guns pointed at the bodies... the mosque resonates with harsh American voices arguing over a body- was he dead, was he alive? I watched, tense, wondering what they would do- I expected the usual Marines treatment- that a heavy, booted foot would kick the man perhaps to see if he groaned. But it didn't work that way- the crack of gunfire suddenly explodes in the mosque as the Marine fires at the seemingly dead man and then come the words, "He's dead now."

"He's dead now." He said it calmly, matter-of-factly, in a sort of sing-song voice that made my blood run cold… and the Marines around him didn't care. They just roamed around the mosque and began to drag around the corpses because, apparently, this was nothing to them. This was probably a commonplace incident.

...

And what will happen now? A criminal investigation against a single Marine who did the shooting? Just like what happened with the Abu Ghraib atrocities? A couple of people will be blamed and the whole thing will be buried under the rubble of idiotic military psychologists, defense analysts, Pentagon officials and spokespeople and it will be forgotten. In the end, all anyone will remember is that a single Marine shot and killed a single Iraqi 'insurgent' and it won't matter anymore.

It's typical American technique- every single atrocity is lost and covered up by blaming a specific person and getting it over with. What people don't understand is that the whole military is infested with these psychopaths. In this last year we've seen murderers, torturers and xenophobes running around in tanks and guns. I don't care what does it: I don't care if it's the tension, the fear, the 'enemy'… it's murder. We are occupied by murderers. We're under the same pressure, as Iraqis, except that we weren't trained for this situation, and yet we're all expected to be benevolent and understanding and, above all, grateful. I'm feeling sick, depressed and frightened. I don't know what to say anymore… they aren't humans and they don't deserve any compassion.

So why is the world so obsessed with beheadings? How is this so very different? The difference is that the people who are doing the beheadings are extremists… the people slaughtering Iraqis- torturing in prisons and shooting wounded prisoners- are "American Heroes". Congratulations, you must be so proud of yourselves today.

Has the United States proper been attacked since 9/11?

How many times was the U.S. proper attacked before 9-11?