David Suzuki versus Justin Trudeau

[Smallc]

Luckily, wiser people than you have prevailed through history.

Name me a time.

[bush_cheney2004]

factual???

Do you even have the remotest clue of how science works?

Yes...and your statement is evidence that you do not.

As usual, you're wrong.

Prudence is anticipating what could go wrong and taking intelligent steps to avoid it. Religion is believing everything will be just fine no matter what we do.

Nope....you posted a dire conclusion without any factual basis. Accordingly, such an alarmist belief is like religion.

[On Guard for Thee]

Name me a time.

You could obviously argue that until the cows come home. For instance with regard to GW, people/countries are already reacting to it, but of course that is because we have become ore aware of the effects. So you could argue that we are only reacting because we see the need. Now, are you suggesting we should continue to ignore it until the ocean covers over Florida or the salmon all wash ashore dead?

[TimG]

Prudence is anticipating what could go wrong and taking intelligent steps to avoid it. Religion is believing everything will be just fine no matter what we do.

Religion is refusing to acknowledge technical and economic realities that make getting rid of fossil fuels a near impossibility for the foreseeable future. What "prudent steps" really means to you and your ilk is wasting billions on various boondoggles that will have a negligible effect on emissions in the long run. Edited September 29, 2015 by TimG

[overthere]

Prudence is anticipating what could go wrong and taking intelligent steps to avoid it. Religion is believing everything will be just fine no matter what we do.

Nah. Religion is about acceptance that God will provide. That does not mean that everything will be fine, people of faith are no more or less stupid than apostates. It also does not imply passivity in affecting outcomes. The faithful still plant crops in a drought.

There are very few examples of 'prudence' in our human history, not on a global scale. For a couple of the countless examples, refer to both World Wars. We had a good idea what was about to occur, yet there were no intelligent steps taken to avert the apocalypse.

We cannot even get people globally to agree on such prudent and simple no-brainers as universal vaccinations.....

[Smallc]

You could obviously argue that until the cows come home. For instance with regard to GW, people/countries are already reacting to it,

Not really. Not in any meaningful way. Not in a way, most importantly, that impacts their standard of living.

[On Guard for Thee]

Not really. Not in any meaningful way. Not in a way, most importantly, that impacts their standard of living.

China just announced it's new cap and trade program. These things will only accelerate I suspect as o the one hand, more evidence of climate change destruction reveals itself, and green tech. becomes more profitable on the other.

http://news.discovery.com/earth/global-warming/china-announces-worlds-largest-cap-and-trade-program-150927.htm

Edited September 29, 2015 by On Guard for Thee

[Smallc]

China just announced it's new cap and trade program.

Great. Will it reverse the problem? Will it even slow it down in any meaningful way?

These things will only accelerate I suspect as o the one hand, more evidence of climate change destruction reveals itself, and green tech. becomes more profitable on the other.

I would imagine that yes, there will be many more meaningless gestures to come.

One only needs to look at the history of whaling for evidence.

[overthere]

China just announced it's new cap and trade program. These things will only accelerate I suspect as o the one hand, more evidence of climate change destruction reveals itself, and green tech. becomes more profitable on the other.

http://news.discovery.com/earth/global-warming/china-announces-worlds-largest-cap-and-trade-program-150927.htm

The 'program announcement' in China may actually support the premise presented that 'Humanity reacts when necessary, and never before.'.

The air quality in Beijing and a few other places is close to lethal. Perhaps that is the necessity for action.

And I don't believe a word the Chinese say in any case.

[On Guard for Thee]

Great. Will it reverse the problem? Will it even slow it down in any meaningful way?

I would imagine that yes, there will be many more meaningless gestures to come.

One only needs to look at the history of whaling for evidence.

Apparently China hopes it will. Luckily not everybody has this attitude that we need to be on our deathbed before we think about seeig a doctor.

[Smallc]

Apparently China hopes it will. Luckily not everybody has this attitude that we need to be on our deathbed before we think about seeig a doctor.

They're hoping, actually, that it will make everyone go - see, look what they did! You fell for it apparently.

[On Guard for Thee]

They're hoping, actually, that it will make everyone go - see, look what they did! You fell for it apparently.

I've already been there, many times, so I can see why they are doing what they are doing. It seems like you fell for the naysayers.

[ToadBrother]

Luckily, wiser people than you have prevailed through history. With that attitude, we'd still be living in caves beating each other with clubs.

Actually, history indicates that the wisdom rarely prevails. There are salt-laden deserts in southern Iraq to attest to how people persisted in terrible agricultural practices until the land itself was rendered unsuitable.

And lo and behold, what are they doing in Southern California? Pumping out natural aquifers to the point where the water that's coming out now is a much higher salinity and they have to increase the amount of fertilizer (aka. nitrates), which they can only do for so long before no matter what you put in the soil you won't be able to grow any kind of useful crop, not to mention dumping tons of nitrates into the Pacific Ocean, increasing algae blooms and completely screwing up ecosystems in the area.

I have every confidence that even know we've known about AGW since the 1950s, that wisdom will not prevail and we will only move to alternative energies after we've screwed everything up.

Might be great for Canada, though. With most models showing rainbelts shifting further northward, we will probably be growing wheat in the Northwest Territories, and selling it to the US because the Midwest has been transformed into a permanent dust bowl.

[ToadBrother]

Religion is refusing to acknowledge technical and economic realities that make getting rid of fossil fuels a near impossibility for the foreseeable future. What "prudent steps" really means to you and your ilk is wasting billions on various boondoggles that will have a negligible effect on emissions in the long run.

Religion is believing the laws of nature give even the tiniest c--p about your economic system.

[bush_cheney2004]

And lo and behold, what are they doing in Southern California?

The same thing they have done for over 100 years. Southern California agribusiness is based nearly entirely on man-made water resource diversion projects and irrigation. It was barren desert going back millions of years, long before "climate change".

[ToadBrother]

The same thing they have done for over 100 years. Southern California agribusiness is based nearly entirely on man-made water resource diversion projects and irrigation. It was barren desert going back millions of years, long before "climate change".

And????

The point is that the effort used to make it arable will increase soil salinity, not to mention dumping tons of fertilizer into the ocean, screwing up the California coast.

[TimG]

Religion is believing the laws of nature give even the tiniest c--p about your economic system.

Religion is insisting on doing pointless things because you "have faith" that it will make a difference despite the math that shows otherwise. The most prudent and pragmatic approach at this point in time is to plan for adaptation as required. Edited September 29, 2015 by TimG

[ToadBrother]

Religion is insisting on doing pointless things because you "have faith" that it will make a difference despite the math that shows otherwise. The most prudent and pragmatic approach at this point in time is to plan for adaptation as required.

What math? Most of the experts I've read have suggested that if we move quickly to reduce CO2 emissions we can at least slow the rate of climate change.

It's amusing how out of one side of your mouth you basically reject areas of chemistry and physics that have been well understood since the 19th century, and out of the other side of your mouth you declare it's too late to do anything about it.

It strikes me that you don't have any real objection to science at all, you just believe you can find some way in which you don't have to pay for what is happening.

[ReeferMadness]

Religion is refusing to acknowledge technical and economic realities that make getting rid of fossil fuels a near impossibility for the foreseeable future.

You a mean the economic reality that every market and every political realm in existence is controlled or manipulated by major players who have the most at stake. So, while there is a pressing need for clean, renewable energy, the very thought of it makes executives in a whole myriad of industries (fossil fuels, refining, automotive/heavy duty equipment, and of course your own, electrical utilities) that crap their drawers at the very thought of energy with a marginal cost of zero.

So, no wonder you can't bring yourself to believe in science. You have too much at stake.

[ReeferMadness]

It strikes me that you don't have any real objection to science at all, you just believe you can find some way in which you don't have to pay for what is happening.

He believes in the science that keeps big electricity utilities profitable. That's all.

[TimG]

What math? Most of the experts I've read have suggested that if we move quickly to reduce CO2 emissions we can at least slow the rate of climate change.

I have not heard one expert say that who is actually qualified to hold an opinion on such things. When I have seen detailed analyses that do the math to support the claims you find so much wishful thinking and implausible assumptions that the analyses ends up supporting the view that it is near impossible.

It's amusing how out of one side of your mouth you basically reject areas of chemistry and physics that have been well understood since the 19th century, and out of the other side of your mouth you declare it's too late to do anything about it.

I have never done that. Your problem is you can't separate opinions from verifiable and testable facts.

It strikes me that you don't have any real objection to science at all, you just believe you can find some way in which you don't have to pay for what is happening.

I am against wasting money on futile exercises. If technology evolves in a way that makes the math work out I will change my tune and would be happy to pay for it. But as long as we are working with the technology we have today any attempt to significantly reduce emissions will fail. Edited September 29, 2015 by TimG

[ReeferMadness]

So, you agree with him then.

I agree with him that we can't be sure what will happen if we keep on pumping abnormal amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere.

Also, I can't be sure what will happen if I sprint through an area if I had reason to suspect has been a minefield. I wouldn't though, because I'm not an idiot. See how that works?

[TimG]

So, while there is a pressing need for clean, renewable energy, the very thought of it makes executives in a whole myriad of industries (fossil fuels, refining, automotive/heavy duty equipment, and of course your own, electrical utilities) that crap their drawers at the very thought of energy with a marginal cost of zero.

The conspiracy theories you invent are quite bizarre and nonsensical. All they do is show you know nothing useful about the topic. Edited September 29, 2015 by TimG

[bush_cheney2004]

And????

The point is that the effort used to make it arable will increase soil salinity, not to mention dumping tons of fertilizer into the ocean, screwing up the California coast.

So what ? Have you ever been to the Salton Sea area ?

It is already "screwed up" so Americans and Canadians can have lettuce and strawberries in January.

[ToadBrother]

The conspiracy theories you invent are quite bizarre and nonsensical. All they do is show you know nothing useful about the topic.

The only thing bizarre here is that you spend half your time trying to convince me that increased temperature trapping in the lower atmosphere is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and the other half of the time claiming we can do nothing about it.