Papal Visit to Cuba and USA

[Big Guy]

The Pope is now in the USA after having visited Cuba:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/22/politics/pope-francis-us-visit-updates/index.html

I found the visit to Cuba interesting especially since it seems he was influential in getting the USA and Cuba together. His visit to the USA has started with the media gushing with pride and expectations that something of value will occur.

Do you think that anything of substance can come from this visit?

[Canada_First]

I am glad that a Christian leader is visiting Obama. Maybe he can help instill Christian values back into the USA. I TRULY hope that will be the case. Obama claims to be a Christian. I'm not sure his actions live up to his beliefs.

[WIP]

Pope visits.....and right wing heads explode all across America.

Unfortunately, President Obama is already packaging the Pope's speeches on climate and other issues as support for his agenda. Keep in mind that his agenda so far has been to give an impassioned speech about the dangers to the human race of allowing carbon to increase......less than a week after approving Exxon's offshore drilling venture in the Arctic Ocean! Walk The Talk!

At the White House - Barbara Plett Usher, BBC News

President Obama couldn't have hoped for a clearer endorsement of his climate agenda from such an immense source of moral authority.

Pope Francis made a strong pitch for battling climate change, including specific reference to Mr Obama's clean air initiative. His position tracks so closely to the president's it has some conservatives grumbling.

[Big Guy]

Both political parties are now scrambling to spin the Pope's comments to their own philosophies.

Should the Pope, according to his statements, be considered a Democrat or Republican (A left or right political leaner)?

[TimG]

Should the Pope, according to his statements, be considered a Democrat or Republican (A left or right political leaner)?

The Pope is the worst of both worlds who supports big intrusive government in the social and economic domains.

An anti-libertarian.

Edited September 24, 2015 by TimG

[WIP]

Both political parties are now scrambling to spin the Pope's comments to their own philosophies.

Should the Pope, according to his statements, be considered a Democrat or Republican (A left or right political leaner)?

What I am certain of is that he should be considered a politician! He seems to have an ability (similar to Obama and Bill Clinton) of winning popular support without making much/if any policy changes within his organization. He is well aware of the fact that the kind of rightwing Catholic Church represented by US bishops and cardinals is on its way to extinction, so he's trying to appeal to younger, more liberal voters....I mean Catholics...before they walk out and leave the Church for good.

[Shady]

The Pope is the worst of both worlds who supports big intrusive government in the social and economic domains.An anti-libertarian.

I think his intentions are good, but you're right. I am unaware of Jesus' insistence that people give money to the Romans so that they may distribute it accordingly.

[kimmy]

I think his intentions are good, but you're right. I am unaware of Jesus' insistence that people give money to the Romans so that they may distribute it accordingly.

"Render unto Caesar" doesn't ring any bells for you?

-k

[Shady]

Pope visits.....and right wing heads explode all across America.

Unfortunately, President Obama is already packaging the Pope's speeches on climate and other issues as support for his agenda. Keep in mind that his agenda so far has been to give an impassioned speech about the dangers to the human race of allowing carbon to increase......less than a week after approving Exxon's offshore drilling venture in the Arctic Ocean! Walk The Talk!

I'm glad to see that lefties no longer care about the seperation of church and state. Can't wait until a republican president does something similar. I'm sure there won't be any problems!

[Shady]

"Render unto Caesar" doesn't ring any bells for you?

-k

No really.

[Michael Hardner]

No really.

Helping:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Render_unto_Caesar

"Render unto Caesar" is the beginning of a phrase attributed to Jesus in the synoptic gospels, which reads in full, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" (Ἀπόδοτε οὖν τὰ Καίσαρος Καίσαρι καὶ τὰ τοῦ Θεοῦ τῷ Θεῷ).^{[Matthew 22:21]}

This phrase has become a widely quoted summary of the relationship between Christianity and secular authority. The original message, coming in response to a question of whether it was lawful for Jews to pay taxes to Caesar, gives rise to multiple possible interpretations about the circumstances under which it is desirable for the Christianto submit to earthly authority.

[bush_cheney2004]

Helping:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Render_unto_Caesar

Helping more....the Pope's Roman Catholic Church has enumerated denominational rights in Canada's Constitution Act....since 1867 ! The U.S. government will never be able to match that kind of deal.

[Shady]

Helping:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Render_unto_Caesar

So my stuff is considered "Caesar's things"?

[Michael Hardner]

So my stuff is considered "Caesar's things"?

Sorry - I was helping you with scripture. You can ask Kimmy to explain the rest.

[WIP]

I think his intentions are good, but you're right. I am unaware of Jesus' insistence that people give money to the Romans so that they may distribute it accordingly.

Nor is it likely that you are aware Jesus's apostles told their followers to bring forth ALL of their goods and possessions to be SHARED equally among the brethren:

ACTS Ch. 4:

KJV

32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,

37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

Then, in ACTS Ch. 5, we learn the price for any job-creators who decided to hold back even a part of their wealth to be divided:KJV

1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

Modern rightwing christian spindoctors...especially the evangelical stars with the mansions and private airplanes, like to focus on the lying aspect of the story as being the reason Ananias and Sapphira were divinely executed, and ignore the whole point that the first Christian community according to its own texts, was extremely socialistic, and the reason why so many later fundamentalists sects...including Amish and Mennonite communities were socialist.

What's especially laughable, is the modern American rightwing thanksgiving myth of the Plymouth Rock Colony being endangered by their inefficient communism, but flourishing after discovering God-given capitalist market principles. Much of the reason why this pope is receiving abuse from the Limbaughs and Townhall bloggers is because he is returning to the pre-capitalist Christian teachings that started in America 100 years ago and spread throughout the world. Prior to the rise of rightwing freemarket christianity, wealth and the owners of wealth were not godly men...until they gave a substantial portion of that wealth to the Church! It used to be: blessed are the poor/ then it became blessed are the rich...and this new pope is not so much a leftist radical than a real traditionalist who's reaching back prior to the capitalist reinvention of Christian dogma.

Edited September 25, 2015 by WIP

[WIP]

I'm glad to see that lefties no longer care about the seperation of church and state. Can't wait until a republican president does something similar. I'm sure there won't be any problems!

I didn't say I like it, but the Catholic Church functions as both a church and a state, and that's how they are able to blur these boundaries. They have a pseudo-nation in the Vatican, that provides the legitimacy to deal with nations at the state-to-state level, and write up treaties called "Concordats" with various nations around the world with large or Catholic majorities within their populations. No other church or religion enjoys this kind of leverage....and you righties weren't complaining about it before during the two rightwing popes who collaborated with the CIA and assorted banana republic dictators in Latin America who tortured and murdered...including murdering rebellious clerics like archbishop Romero in El Salvador. When Romero's name gets offered up for canonization, I'll take notice....until then, I'm watching a politician who represents a powershift from old Europe to the Third World within the Catholic Church hierarchy.

[kimmy]

So my stuff is considered "Caesar's things"?

You asked where Jesus insisted his followers should give their money to the Romans. Well, there it is. He literally says his followers should give their money to the Romans. It's Biblical support for the notion that you should pay your frickin taxes, whether you like what "the Romans" (or in your case, "da gubbermint") do with it or not.

And I think that if you revisit your New Testament you'll find that Jesus wasn't big on the "my stuff" narrative, and was extremely fond of redistributing wealth to the poor and sick.

I'm glad to see that lefties no longer care about the seperation of church and state. Can't wait until a republican president does something similar. I'm sure there won't be any problems!

I certainly don't have to tell you how I feel about the idea that the Catholic Church is a "moral authority" or that its opinions should be given special weight by our secular governments.

However, I can't help being tremendously entertained at seeing many conservatives who justify their politics using their religious beliefs going into apoplexy when confronted by a religious leader who isn't a conservative.

-k

[WIP]

You asked where Jesus insisted his followers should give their money to the Romans. Well, there it is. He literally says his followers should give their money to the Romans. It's Biblical support for the notion that you should pay your frickin taxes, whether you like what "the Romans" (or in your case, "da gubbermint") do with it or not.

And I think that if you revisit your New Testament you'll find that Jesus wasn't big on the "my stuff" narrative, and was extremely fond of redistributing wealth to the poor and sick.

-k

Yep, at least this pope is resetting the dials that got switched when prosperity gospel started, and god's blessings went to the rich, while the poor were told they weren't working hard enough! A few months ago, I heard a couple of interviews with an historian (forget the name) who had a book out titled: "How Corporate America Created Christian America." His bold thesis was that the shift to the right and the embrace of capitalist values wasn't a product of anticommunism that started during the Cold War, but instead started during the Depression, when some disaffected business leaders began strategizing with a popular Hollywood radio evangelist to create a Christian message that was pro-capitalist and pro-American...now I'm wishing I had picked up the book and got the details.

I certainly don't have to tell you how I feel about the idea that the Catholic Church is a "moral authority" or that its opinions should be given special weight by our secular governments.

However, I can't help being tremendously entertained at seeing many conservatives who justify their politics using their religious beliefs going into apoplexy when confronted by a religious leader who isn't a conservative.

I mentioned previously some of my misgivings about someone who's taken over an expansive, corrupt organization, and how much change he can actually accomplish; but at least he's doing what Christian leaders are supposed to do: comfort the afflicted, and afflict the comfortable.:

At U.N., pope condemns 'boundless thirst' for wealth and power