ReeferMadness Posted September 22, 2015 Report Posted September 22, 2015 If only they were. They're by the useless artificial region construct. It's a federation. That's the point. We need to balance regional interests within the people's house. The provinces already have way too much power. It's a wonder this country has survived as long as it has. It's less of a country than a bunch of constantly squabbling fiefdoms. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted September 22, 2015 Report Posted September 22, 2015 Because ...you say so? They're going to get a seat under our system, so you must think it's pretty good. Exactly. Because I say so. And because if it's much larger, you risk large percentages of the population not being represented in government. And because the overwhelming majority of countries with PR governments have thresholds of 5% or less. I know. It's so disappointing - you would love to see the Green Party shut out. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted September 22, 2015 Report Posted September 22, 2015 I can see them getting a few more seats under an MMR system, but likely not enough to get them Official Party Status. It's funny, because so far as I understand it, the Greens are big fans of the MMR system, when if they really wanted to help their own electoral fortunes, they'd be advocating for STV. Do you have a citation? I've never heard of the Green Party advocating a particular system. Maybe you mean the NDP. The NDP are big proponents of MMP (what is MMR, btw?) Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Smallc Posted September 22, 2015 Report Posted September 22, 2015 And because the overwhelming majority of countries with PR governments have thresholds of 5% or less. Sure, and 5% would have got them nothing in pretty much every election ever. That's kind of the point. Quote
Smallc Posted September 22, 2015 Report Posted September 22, 2015 The provinces already have way too much power. It's a wonder this country has survived as long as it has. It's less of a country than a bunch of constantly squabbling fiefdoms. That's how this country was designed. The provinces needed to be powerful, or the country would never have formed in the first place. At the same time, a very strong central government was set up. That government has always recognized the importance of the provinces. This is a federation, not a unitary state. I think you're always going to be very unhappy here, given that. Quote
Smallc Posted September 22, 2015 Report Posted September 22, 2015 The NDP are big proponents of MMP In my view, that's a terrible system. In Canada, it would be even worse. Our geographic and population realities make it unworkable. Quote
ToadBrother Posted September 22, 2015 Report Posted September 22, 2015 The provinces already have way too much power. It's a wonder this country has survived as long as it has. It's less of a country than a bunch of constantly squabbling fiefdoms. I'm always amused at the irony of those who consider themselves the biggest advocates of freedom and democracy are the ones quickest to complain and demand some other group's freedoms be reduced because they are troublesome. The powers of the Federal and Provincial governments were decided through negotiation between the founding provinces. Whether you feel those powers are too great or not is irrelevant, and the long history of Federal-Provincial relations would heavily suggest the voters in all the Provinces would not at all be in favor of Provincial powers being reduced to enlarge Federal powers. Quote
ReeferMadness Posted September 22, 2015 Report Posted September 22, 2015 Sure, and 5% would have got them nothing in pretty much every election ever. That's kind of the point. No. It should get them 5% of the seats. You do understand that's what the 'proportional' in proportional representation means? Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Smallc Posted September 22, 2015 Report Posted September 22, 2015 (edited) No. It should get them 5% of the seats. I wasn't clear. if the cutoff were 5%, they wouldn't have gotten any seats, including the last election. Even a 4% cutoff would have denied them a single seat. Edited September 22, 2015 by Smallc Quote
ReeferMadness Posted September 22, 2015 Report Posted September 22, 2015 In my view, that's a terrible system. In Canada, it would be even worse. Our geographic and population realities make it unworkable. Well, you better hope that they don't form government; because that's what they want. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Smallc Posted September 22, 2015 Report Posted September 22, 2015 Well, you better hope that they don't form government; because that's what they want. I prefer the Liberal plan of studying all options to replace FPTP. Quote
eyeball Posted September 22, 2015 Report Posted September 22, 2015 The island isn't a province or a region with uniform concerns. Are you kidding? We actually have our own liberation organization. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
ReeferMadness Posted September 22, 2015 Report Posted September 22, 2015 I'm always amused at the irony of those who consider themselves the biggest advocates of freedom and democracy are the ones quickest to complain and demand some other group's freedoms be reduced because they are troublesome. A province is not a group. It's a set of lines that were arbitrarily drawn on a map. The powers of the Federal and Provincial governments were decided through negotiation between the founding provinces. Whether you feel those powers are too great or not is irrelevant, and the long history of Federal-Provincial relations would heavily suggest the voters in all the Provinces would not at all be in favor of Provincial powers being reduced to enlarge Federal powers. And it will probably result in there being no country at some point. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ToadBrother Posted September 22, 2015 Report Posted September 22, 2015 Are you kidding? We actually have our own liberation organization. Is this the group that wants to dissolve the union of British Columbia and Vancouver Island? I guess it takes all types... Quote
ToadBrother Posted September 22, 2015 Report Posted September 22, 2015 A province is not a group. It's a set of lines that were arbitrarily drawn on a map. And it will probably result in there being no country at some point. Bollocks. The system has worked since 1867. Quote
eyeball Posted September 22, 2015 Report Posted September 22, 2015 Is this the group that wants to dissolve the union of British Columbia and Vancouver Island? I guess it takes all types... No it's just a few hippies who printed up a few t-shirts back in the 70's. The sentiment lingers though. Ottawa might as well be on the farside of Pluto. The farther the better I figure. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
ReeferMadness Posted September 22, 2015 Report Posted September 22, 2015 I prefer the Liberal plan of studying all options to replace FPTP. The Liberals don't want PR. They want alternative vote. Cuz that's what's best for the Liberals. It's a sham. And a scam. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted September 22, 2015 Report Posted September 22, 2015 Bollocks. The system has worked since 1867. And it very nearly stopped working in 1995. There are Newfoundlanders who regret 1949. Quebeccers and Quebecois. Albertan separatists. BC separatists. And those are just the ones I know about. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted September 22, 2015 Report Posted September 22, 2015 The provinces already have tons of power and they seem to be more and more inclined to use it. We don't need federal systems that further pander to regional differences. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
G Huxley Posted September 22, 2015 Report Posted September 22, 2015 You just said we can't guess about the outcome based on polls. Now you're doing it based on nothing. Well since you insist on it in lieu of letting Democracy having a chance I'll play your game for a bit. "Their cutoff is a great compromise and the only thing that makes me think it might work here." Their cutoff defeats the purpose actually since it is unfair to smaller parties. Quote
Canada_First Posted September 22, 2015 Report Posted September 22, 2015 Well since you insist on it in lieu of letting Democracy having a chance I'll play your game for a bit. "Their cutoff is a great compromise and the only thing that makes me think it might work here." Their cutoff defeats the purpose actually since it is unfair to smaller parties. Yes it's fair. Most votes wins. No seats means people don't care about that parties issues and thinks they're not worth investing the one precious vote into.Greens are a one issue party. Running a country or province is multi faceted and complex. It's not enough to simply care about the environment and forgo everything else. Quote
ToadBrother Posted September 22, 2015 Report Posted September 22, 2015 Well since you insist on it in lieu of letting Democracy having a chance I'll play your game for a bit. "Their cutoff is a great compromise and the only thing that makes me think it might work here." Their cutoff defeats the purpose actually since it is unfair to smaller parties. Since when do smaller parties just automatically have a right to be in any legislative assembly? Quote
ToadBrother Posted September 22, 2015 Report Posted September 22, 2015 (edited) The provinces already have tons of power and they seem to be more and more inclined to use it. We don't need federal systems that further pander to regional differences. I wasn't advocating giving provinces more power, but you seem time and time again unwilling to recognize that Canada is a federal state, and that the majority of the provinces were polities PRIOR to Confederation, and that four of those provinces agreed to grant their sovereignty as Crown Colonies, along with some of their powers, to a Federal Government (two other colonies; PEI and British Columbia would soon after, and Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta were largely formed out of British territories like Rupert's Land). Whether you think they have too much power really is besides the point. Canada is not a unitary state, it will never be a unitary state, and any attempt to seize provincial powers would require a constitutional amendment that would require all ten provinces to agree, and thus has absolutely no chance of ever passing. The system works. Yes, there are collisions of powers, just as there are in any federal state (we're not the only one, you know). We have the Supreme Court to deal with the most severe jurisdictional collisions, but they really do seldom happen. You seem to spend far too much time listening to griping politicians, and not enough time actually looking at how well the Federal and Provincial governments interact. I have seen some of those interactions and not too far a distance, and Federal and Provincial civil servants, and even Ministers, will in private, usually find ways to break impasses. Edited September 22, 2015 by ToadBrother Quote
cybercoma Posted September 22, 2015 Author Report Posted September 22, 2015 That depends on which PR system you use. I've heard of nobody advocating a pure list system. The Greens are currently polling over 30% on Vancouver Island. Under MMP or STV, the Greens would have more than one seat. Also, you are assuming that the voting percentages will be unaffected if you remove the motivation for strategic voting. This is an irrelevant aside. The point is that the Green Party is a fringe party with little national support. I'm highlighting that by saying some PR systems wouldn't even afford them a seat with their support from last election. They are simply not a player. They haven't even held balance of power yet. And look, I'm saying all of this despite really liking the Green Party and Elizabeth May. Some of you just refuse to acknowledge the reality here though. Quote
cybercoma Posted September 22, 2015 Author Report Posted September 22, 2015 Sounds almost like you care more about eliminating smaller parties than you do about proportionality. Of course it's about eliminating smaller parties. Do you know what kind of fringe extremists can grab the balance of power with no cutoff? Quote
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