Canadian military and security spending

[Argus]

There's an article by a well known reporter in am major news paper about it. You choose to ignore it because you're a partisan Conservative with an agenda. I don't have same said agenda.

But Lawrence Martin is a partisan NDP supporter with an agenda.

Mulcair has said he won't raise income taxes. The NDP believe the HST is not progressive. That doesn't leave a lot of places to raise new money, especially if they're going to slow down the oil industry. Unless, of course, this 'cap and trade' scheme, is a hugely expensive money raiser for the government, which would have to mean way higher taxes on gasoline, power and heating fuels.

He's also got a left wing caucus which will need to be stroked if he's going to pursue the kind of centrist policies you seem to think he will. Cutting military spending would would help there, as well as raising money, so it seems a natural. I don't see the NDP committing to buying new fighters either, not now, not ever. They've said they won't buy the F-35, and there's really nothing else available that won't be in a museum in 30 years.

[Smallc]

Between corporate taxes and income splitting we're already at $5B. Add in some stupid credits and we're where they need to go.

As for never raising military spending, it really depends. An NDP government like the one in Manitoba would be completely middle of the road.

[Smallc]

2 x A310s + 5 x C-130H versus 5 A330s..........How well do you think the far larger A330s work up North or from smaller airfields across Canada?

I want to see a picture of an A310 MRTT refuelling a C-17.

[Argus]

Between corporate taxes and income splitting we're already at $5B. Add in some stupid credits and we're where they need to go.

I doubt corporate taxes would raise all that much, not compared to all the stuff the NDP wants to do, such as daycare. Heck, bringing over tens of thousands of Syrian refugees is going to cost a pile of money too. You know how much it costs to support a family for a couple of years? Guess what the cost of supporting thirty or forty or fifty thousand people for years is.

[Smallc]

Daycare starts at $1.9B combined cost to both levels of government. A corporate tax increase of 2 points nets about $3B. Income splitting is about $2B. Removin just a few credits, another billion. That funds all their promises including a military spending increase the size the PBO estimates we need to maintain the current forces.

Military spending used to be one of the reasons I voted NDP. With lower small business taxes and a GIS increase that will help many of my customers, I'll be laughing all the way to the bank.

[Derek 2.0]

I want to see a picture of an A310 MRTT refuelling a C-17.

Why? The lack of a boom tanker hasn't impacted RCAF operations one iota.........funny enough, the RAF, which operates the C-17 and the A330 also doesn't have boom tankers.......so your point?

[The_Squid]

It would be good to cut military spending in favour of education, healthcare, etc.

[Smallc]

It would be good to cut military spending in favour of education, healthcare, etc.

Military spending has already been cut to levels not seen since 2005. How much further would you have them go into your pet areas of provincial responsibility using money that doesn't exist.

[Army Guy]

That's just it, since 2008, DND has handed back over 8 billion dollars, or better put, on average, DND doesn't spend ~5-7% of its budget each year........and the vast majority of said funds are earmarked for procurement.

Hard to cry poverty when you're returning unspent money, that's not to say I'd rather DND piss it away on new office furniture or drinks on the mess at the end of the year.......

And while the government ultimately will hold the blame bag for these failures, and we continue to run with a financial accounting system that not only encourages waste, but is based on wasting tax payers dollars....It takes leadership to make changes that makes sense.

The current system is based on a use it or loss it method, and does not encourage any Federal dept to be spend it funding wisely.....in fact it encourages waste, the all " famous" end year rush to spend surplus funding from the 1 st line Unit right up to the top....it had come down from the top chain of command "make sure your budgets are zero'd or over spent by 10 %"....In this rush there is little thought put into these purchases, i remember one year the RQ shop spent 100,000 on toilet paper, to name a few unless items, that was 5 years ago, and the shelves are still full.....OK i know what your thinking how could that be possible the ARMY is full of shit" .....there would be thousands of examples of this type of spending just to get rid of funding.....

This type of spending requires a lot of thought to be put into it, it needs a small army of workers to plan and manage , within the Army at the 1 line unit level there is the DCO, who can be any trade , and only has minimal financial training, the rules are laid out and he is expected to follow them....no other training provided.....the next guy on the list is the Unit QM a logistical officer, who has the same training as the DCO, both manage the budget, and spend it.....This practice goes up the entire chain of command.....not one guy has the experience or qualifications to manage a multi million dollar budgets.....

[cybercoma]

It would be good to cut military spending in favour of education, healthcare, etc.

Education and healthcare are provincial jurisdiction.

[Derek 2.0]

And while the government ultimately will hold the blame bag for these failures, and we continue to run with a financial accounting system that not only encourages waste, but is based on wasting tax payers dollars....It takes leadership to make changes that makes sense.

The current system is based on a use it or loss it method, and does not encourage any Federal dept to be spend it funding wisely.....in fact it encourages waste, the all " famous" end year rush to spend surplus funding from the 1 st line Unit right up to the top....it had come down from the top chain of command "make sure your budgets are zero'd or over spent by 10 %"....In this rush there is little thought put into these purchases, i remember one year the RQ shop spent 100,000 on toilet paper, to name a few unless items, that was 5 years ago, and the shelves are still full.....OK i know what your thinking how could that be possible the ARMY is full of shit" .....there would be thousands of examples of this type of spending just to get rid of funding.....

This type of spending requires a lot of thought to be put into it, it needs a small army of workers to plan and manage , within the Army at the 1 line unit level there is the DCO, who can be any trade , and only has minimal financial training, the rules are laid out and he is expected to follow them....no other training provided.....the next guy on the list is the Unit QM a logistical officer, who has the same training as the DCO, both manage the budget, and spend it.....This practice goes up the entire chain of command.....not one guy has the experience or qualifications to manage a multi million dollar budgets.....

The annual returning of funds isn't just a military issue, but one also of public policy and procurement rules. If at the end of a fiscal year, for example, DND has 1 billion in unused funds, its not as simple as saying "lets buy a couple more planes, a few dozen more of these trucks, build a new hanger on this base and redo the roof and heating system in these barracks".

By law (Unless in a dire emergency, with only one potential provider) DND has to collect various bids and run an exhaustive process, not only receiving estimates of the purchase price and cost of spares, but upkeep of the item throughout its expected service life........so to start said process, DND needs to know the total end of year surplus, then do the above process (that can take months, if not years), hope losing bidders don't launch a legal challenge, then ensure that the DND will be able to afford the upkeep of these new items going forward......

Now the process has been improved to a certain degree with the current Government, as made evident with last years end of year purchase of an additional C-17. The RCAF already had completed much of the process with the previous purchase (that came in slightly under budget), knew the expected through life costs and felt the price of an additional aircraft could be absorbed from within their current budget framework....all that was needed was the cash in the couch cushions to pay Boeing.......

Inversely, look at the ongoing FWSAR saga......in a perfect world, the RCAF would be able to obtain a percentage of said surplus funds each year and purchase additional CC-130J Hercs, maybe only 2 or 3 a year (The flyaway price is around $75 million per), replacing our existing FWSAR fleet (comprised mostly of older CC-130s) with the newer Hercs over a 5-10 year period, expanding the already existing infrastructure and support network for our existing CC-130J transport fleet......well replacing the FWSAR fleet, under budget, from already existing funds.......everyone wins.

[The_Squid]

Education and healthcare are provincial jurisdiction.

Increase transfers earmarked for those purposes.

[Smallc]

Increase transfers earmarked for those purposes.

Defence is a federal responsibility that we don't take serious enough as it is. Thomas Mulcair seems to understand that.

[Army Guy]

The annual returning of funds isn't just a military issue, but one also of public policy and procurement rules. If at the end of a fiscal year, for example, DND has 1 billion in unused funds, its not as simple as saying "lets buy a couple more planes, a few dozen more of these trucks, build a new hanger on this base and redo the roof and heating system in these barracks".

I was going to point that out, but got distracted, The entire Federal and provincial government use the same system....which if misused leads to nothing but waste....The system has been proven to be wasteful a thousand times....But what if some form of leadership took the bull by the horns....and offered solutions....one could cut DND budget by billions, and rather than using that in say OEM budgets, give it to those existing projects at the start of the year, forcing units to spend wisely.....

Or with some foresight as all budgets are monitored throughout the year , use those surplus to purchase items such as spare parts, or smaller purchases such as Ammo, small arms, upgrades, i could list thousands of items that have already have a sole source, or previous contract.....as you quoted with the C-17.....But the time the surplus are realized it's to late ....once again funding has to be spent and delivered before 31 March, changing some of our purchase policies, would in my opinion bring about wiser expenditures, done for the greater good of DND and not because some commander wanted to save face and spend all his funding or face losing that funding later.....

As for construction or upgrades to infra structure very little can be built in what remains in the year, but if our policies were to be changed so those funds could be used in another year, then perhaps commanders would spend wisely, save for these types of purchases, rather than waiting for DND to fund them which as we both know is a very long process.....

By law (Unless in a dire emergency, with only one potential provider) DND has to collect various bids and run an exhaustive process, not only receiving estimates of the purchase price and cost of spares, but upkeep of the item throughout its expected service life........so to start said process, DND needs to know the total end of year surplus, then do the above process (that can take months, if not years), hope losing bidders don't launch a legal challenge, then ensure that the DND will be able to afford the upkeep of these new items going forward......

I would agree if, we were purchasing a new to the forces item.....and for those i agree should be run at the national procurement level.....However what if we wanted to buy C-17 spares, like new engines or expand national inventory, we both know you can't have enough spares.....there is already a contract in place or was one at one time, most spares can be soled sourced, after all we want them to be the same as what we are currently using....Ammo is perhaps a better example than spares because it is sole sourced for the most part.....

Now the process has been improved to a certain degree with the current Government, as made evident with last years end of year purchase of an additional C-17. The RCAF already had completed much of the process with the previous purchase (that came in slightly under budget), knew the expected through life costs and felt the price of an additional aircraft could be absorbed from within their current budget framework....all that was needed was the cash in the couch cushions to pay Boeing......

Another solution would be to allow the depts to put cash in the couches , with some over sight of course so it could expand on tactical equipment or with approval strategic equipment such as C-17's...

Inversely, look at the ongoing FWSAR saga......in a perfect world, the RCAF would be able to obtain a percentage of said surplus funds each year and purchase additional CC-130J Hercs, maybe only 2 or 3 a year (The flyaway price is around $75 million per), replacing our existing FWSAR fleet (comprised mostly of older CC-130s) with the newer Hercs over a 5-10 year period, expanding the already existing infrastructure and support network for our existing CC-130J transport fleet......well replacing the FWSAR fleet, under budget, from already existing funds.......everyone wins.

That and a shit load of other projects.....

[Derek 2.0]

I was going to point that out, but got distracted, The entire Federal and provincial government use the same system....which if misused leads to nothing but waste....The system has been proven to be wasteful a thousand times....But what if some form of leadership took the bull by the horns....and offered solutions....one could cut DND budget by billions, and rather than using that in say OEM budgets, give it to those existing projects at the start of the year, forcing units to spend wisely.....

I don't see how it would be possible without a systemic change namely to the civilian bureaucracy and existing, stringent rules, furthermore political consensus.

Or with some foresight as all budgets are monitored throughout the year , use those surplus to purchase items such as spare parts, or smaller purchases such as Ammo, small arms, upgrades, i could list thousands of items that have already have a sole source, or previous contract.....as you quoted with the C-17.....But the time the surplus are realized it's to late ....once again funding has to be spent and delivered before 31 March, changing some of our purchase policies, would in my opinion bring about wiser expenditures, done for the greater good of DND and not because some commander wanted to save face and spend all his funding or face losing that funding later.....

In a perfect world, but I doubt you'd ever see a unit commander given such latitude without Public Works running interference..........I think as a whole, it would have to be a top down approach.......To work with Public Works, I think the most politically palatable solution would be investing in base infrastructure, with the follow on benefit of investment in local economies.....

As for construction or upgrades to infra structure very little can be built in what remains in the year, but if our policies were to be changed so those funds could be used in another year, then perhaps commanders would spend wisely, save for these types of purchases, rather than waiting for DND to fund them which as we both know is a very long process.....

I disagree, ~$1 billion a year is a fair bit of money.......out here, 443 squadron got a new hanger/offices (for the new Cyclones), improvements to the apron and taxiway, modern refueling and wash pad and added security "features" for less than $160 million........good for 443 squadron (replacing WW II era hangers) and good for the local economy...win-win.

I would agree if, we were purchasing a new to the forces item.....and for those i agree should be run at the national procurement level.....However what if we wanted to buy C-17 spares, like new engines or expand national inventory, we both know you can't have enough spares.....there is already a contract in place or was one at one time, most spares can be soled sourced, after all we want them to be the same as what we are currently using....Ammo is perhaps a better example than spares because it is sole sourced for the most part.....

I agree to an extent, but in some cases there is no alternative (Chinooks or C-17) bidders or in others, there are no other bidder producing a product the forces need to feel its requirements (F-35 or most small arms ammo/munitions)..........but for additional smaller purchases to existing fleets, it such items fit within an existing supply chain and budget framework, like small orders of MRAPS, trucks, small arms etc, these items shouldn't require much oversight........likewise, non-perishable (or not so perishable) consumables, like motor oil, lubricants, toilet paper, cleaning supplies etc, things that will be used, but some savings could be found by buying in even larger bulk....and if they stay in a store room for 5 years, who cares.

Another solution would be to allow the depts to put cash in the couches , with some over sight of course so it could expand on tactical equipment or with approval strategic equipment such as C-17's...

I doubt that would ever happen........conjures, right or wrong, images of this:

[Argus]

Defence is a federal responsibility that we don't take serious enough as it is. Thomas Mulcair seems to understand that.

Because of rumours you've heard?

[Smallc]

Because of rumours you've heard?

The Conservatives have cut to what the Liberals were spending when they left office. Don't blame me for not finding them any more credible on this issue.

[eyeball]

But what if some form of leadership took the bull by the horns....and offered solutions....

Not just some form but a completely different and new one. One that's transparent to an extent that would make Orwell blush for starters.

The problem for many is that we'd probably have no need for war if humans could better govern their governments behaviour.

[Army Guy]

I don't see how it would be possible without a systemic change namely to the civilian bureaucracy and existing, stringent rules, furthermore political consensus.

Yes it would mean that we would have to make major changes , in all the forms we do business in and at all levels. But our current method has already proven to be very wasteful...Now what new system could be adopted i'm not sure, i'm not a bean counter, but i do know the current system does not work very well.

And if a new method can not be found, then the current one needs to be changed....perhaps taking budget controls away from unit, and brigade levels and return them to Army level, and National level.....where it use to be....returning to things like Department of supply and services, which use to provide the entire federal government with things like PP&S, General goods,office furniture, which it purchased in massive bulk orders.....then distributed to depts on a "as needed basis", i know thats going back awhile...Returning to national or regional contracts for items such as POL products, fuels etc....

and the examples go on....The original intent of dismantling these national contracts was to open the DND market up to the small guy or business, and while it does a great job putting tax payers dollars into small business there is no economy of scale, no savings, no standards are kept, it is an example of using DND funding to help our economy grow at the cost of doing business effectively and getting more bang for our dollar....

In a perfect world, but I doubt you'd ever see a unit commander given such latitude without Public Works running interference..........I think as a whole, it would have to be a top down approach.......To work with Public Works, I think the most politically palatable solution would be investing in base infrastructure, with the follow on benefit of investment in local economies.....

Sorry i did not clarify, those type of purchases would have to be directed by the elements command, however at the base level, or brigade level, some of these unused unit budgets could be redirected to from army level, or element level back down to Base commanders for infra structure improvement...A good example of this is CFB Gagetown has been planning to do a major expansion of the Base hospital, well as long as i've been here, it is planned, but the funding approval has yet to be approved by NDHQ.....the base has side stepped a lttle bit by using it's surpluses and purchasing ATCO trailers for hospital staff to work out of.... Now the new building has a deign, it has been planned over and over, all it is waiting for is funding.....By allowing say Army element to stuff surplus funding in a couch it would be able to use a brand new fiscal year to launch this type of construction....

I disagree, ~$1 billion a year is a fair bit of money.......out here, 443 squadron got a new hanger/offices (for the new Cyclones), improvements to the apron and taxiway, modern refueling and wash pad and added security "features" for less than $160 million........good for 443 squadron (replacing WW II era hangers) and good for the local economy...win-win.

I agree with you 100% over the years 6 plus bil is a huge amount, but we both know infra struture investments are not very sexy....if they were would we really have WWII hangers....I guess my piont is there must be something that can be done, to tighten the purse strings so smart purchases can be made....so one day infra structure improvements are done across the board....so funding is not turned in, or wasted in a use it or loss it system....

I agree to an extent, but in some cases there is no alternative (Chinooks or C-17) bidders or in others, there are no other bidder producing a product the forces need to feel its requirements (F-35 or most small arms ammo/munitions)..........but for additional smaller purchases to existing fleets, it such items fit within an existing supply chain and budget framework, like small orders of MRAPS, trucks, small arms etc, these items shouldn't require much oversight........likewise, non-perishable (or not so perishable) consumables, like motor oil, lubricants, toilet paper, cleaning supplies etc, things that will be used, but some savings could be found by buying in even larger bulk....and if they stay in a store room for 5 years, who cares.

Part of the problem is that when a surplus is realized and all efforts to spend that surplus fails.....it is often to late to spend that surplus else where....Becuase it a must be spent in that fiscal year, or the time to put in place a contract from PWSG takes months....they are then forced to turn it in up the chain , brigade then starts pushing units to spend, and when they fail up it goes until the very last day then it hands bils back into the government.....And this happens year after year after year....like clock work....

Thats the point perhaps budgets are to large or they are not controlled very well. so with out changing the whole accounting structure, and all the chaos that would create, slash the budgets at the start of the year, use this new found funding some where else...which will force unit commanders to be more vigilant with their funding, and allow national or element commands to fund other projects like infra structure , buying a new plane, tank, or upgrades to that equipment.....I know this is a temp solution at best , but maybe it will give us the time to find a better solution...

Yes there is always the images of the Col and the temptation to use that funding for less than legal actions....but other the other side having 5 years of shit paper on a shelve for 5 or more years just shows the lack of imagination, and wastefulness of this current system....when it could of gone to things like putting in new heating systems in the barracks....or a new hospital....

[Derek 2.0]

And if a new method can not be found, then the current one needs to be changed....perhaps taking budget controls away from unit, and brigade levels and return them to Army level, and National level.....where it use to be....returning to things like Department of supply and services, which use to provide the entire federal government with things like PP&S, General goods,office furniture, which it purchased in massive bulk orders.....then distributed to depts on a "as needed basis", i know thats going back awhile...Returning to national or regional contracts for items such as POL products, fuels etc....

and the examples go on....The original intent of dismantling these national contracts was to open the DND market up to the small guy or business, and while it does a great job putting tax payers dollars into small business there is no economy of scale, no savings, no standards are kept, it is an example of using DND funding to help our economy grow at the cost of doing business effectively and getting more bang for our dollar....

Interesting idea, what’s old is new again……I’m just not so sure that central planning is the way to go, we’re then just feeding the Monster of the Rideau. I’m not necessary opposed to central purchasing to leverage greater economies of scale, but for some items and needs, some level of local autonomy is needed.

Sorry i did not clarify, those type of purchases would have to be directed by the elements command, however at the base level, or brigade level, some of these unused unit budgets could be redirected to from army level, or element level back down to Base commanders for infra structure improvement...A good example of this is CFB Gagetown has been planning to do a major expansion of the Base hospital, well as long as i've been here, it is planned, but the funding approval has yet to be approved by NDHQ.....the base has side stepped a lttle bit by using it's surpluses and purchasing ATCO trailers for hospital staff to work out of.... Now the new building has a deign, it has been planned over and over, all it is waiting for is funding.....By allowing say Army element to stuff surplus funding in a couch it would be able to use a brand new fiscal year to launch this type of construction....

I hear you, for example, if DND has a Forces wide surplus at the end of the fiscal year, its then divided among the elements……I think, all that would create is another level of service infighting, resulting in further bureaucracy, and in turn, morass.

What I think would have to be done is for each element to create its own list of preapproved needs, needs that have already gone through the process and are just awaiting funding. You would then have the Army, RCAF and RCN break it down even further into type: Infrastructure, equipment procurement and consumables…….have each element then prioritize their lists, with an already attached costing report to/from Public Works…………

When the fiscal year is near over, and its determined (for example) that DND has a surplus of $ 1 billion, Public Works and DND can go to the cabinet with costed options…….The Army gets the Hospital extension, the RCAF a couple of more Hercs and the additional munitions for a SINKEX at RIMPAC etc.

I agree with you 100% over the years 6 plus bil is a huge amount, but we both know infra struture investments are not very sexy....if they were would we really have WWII hangers....I guess my piont is there must be something that can be done, to tighten the purse strings so smart purchases can be made....so one day infra structure improvements are done across the board....so funding is not turned in, or wasted in a use it or loss it system....

I agree, but I think the Forces should start offering up bases and amalgamation of various units and Commands.

Part of the problem is that when a surplus is realized and all efforts to spend that surplus fails.....it is often to late to spend that surplus else where....Becuase it a must be spent in that fiscal year, or the time to put in place a contract from PWSG takes months....they are then forced to turn it in up the chain , brigade then starts pushing units to spend, and when they fail up it goes until the very last day then it hands bils back into the government.....And this happens year after year after year....like clock work....

Thats the point perhaps budgets are to large or they are not controlled very well. so with out changing the whole accounting structure, and all the chaos that would create, slash the budgets at the start of the year, use this new found funding some where else...which will force unit commanders to be more vigilant with their funding, and allow national or element commands to fund other projects like infra structure , buying a new plane, tank, or upgrades to that equipment.....I know this is a temp solution at best , but maybe it will give us the time to find a better solution...

One thing is for certain, there is tremendous amounts of waste in DND, not only in terms of money and resources, but also manpower. I’m very much so opposed to increasing the budget until this is addressed.

[Army Guy]

Interesting idea, what’s old is new again……I’m just not so sure that central planning is the way to go, we’re then just feeding the Monster of the Rideau. I’m not necessary opposed to central purchasing to leverage greater economies of scale, but for some items and needs, some level of local autonomy is needed.

Well we have all seen what de centralized planning and spending leads to....When i was in Petawawa i can remember that unit races to spend at the minimum of 250 k months before end year, and weeks before end year Brigade would force another 100 K minimum...now add that up with 12 different units within the brigade and it starts added up to serious money.... And this was all after all those planned purchases were made, and most of those were for junk such as bulk furniture , which they received the year before....

Two years ago our unit purchased x4 sea cans with vidmar cabinets and shelves to be used by the CQ's...for 75 k a piece, last year as part of the new Logistic truck project Ottawa shipped us 8 of nearly the same containers, for free....while it is always great to get extra equipment this is just one example of waste at the local level.....

I

hear you, for example, if DND has a Forces wide surplus at the end of the fiscal year, its then divided among the elements……I think, all that would create is another level of service infighting, resulting in further bureaucracy, and in turn, morass.

Well you could always keep those savings within the element....might entice elemental commanders to save more, drive that message down to the unit commanders....plus give them more over sight on what is actually being spent....And if they want to pirchase an extra truck, plane or ship, then they can toss the request up stairs with funding already in hand....

I agree, but I think the Forces should start offering up bases and amalgamation of various units and Commands.

Ahh,are you suggesting lesley's idea, it has a lot of merit.....