Virginia Reporter Shooter actually filmed the act.

[Black Dog]

Wait a minute.........I thought you said crime rates were driven by access to guns?

I know nuance and subtlety are foreign concepts to you, but there's an important qualifier there.

And gun laws? The legal sale and ownership of automatic weapons in the United States requires a tax stamp and going through the FBI's NICS check, through an FFL dealer.....versus in New Zealand a requirement for a safety course and obtaining a license....in both cases, an extensive background check is required.....

Of course gun laws vary from state to state.

While in NZ: "The process for obtaining a basic firearms license is long, complicated and expensive."

And "gun culture"? I would say the gun culture in tiny New Zealand is quite strong if they have the "World's largest gun store", and legal access to even more types of firearms then even Americans.......

they might have a gun culture but it's not the same as in the U.S. what with it being a completely different country and all. But great false equivalence!

The only "piss-poor logic" here is yours.

Nope. My logic is consistent. You can't make a coherent point if you had a gun to your head.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Black Dog

[Derek 2.0]

I know nuance and subtlety are foreign concepts to you, but there's an important qualifier there.

That is what?

Of course gun laws vary from state to state.

While in NZ: "The process for obtaining a basic firearms license is long, complicated and expensive."

That's subjective, the actual process is even more streamlined than here

they might have a gun culture but it's not the same as in the U.S. what with it being a completely different country and all. But great false equivalence!

False equivalence? You're the one that broached the subject of a given culture in relation to crimes in a given nation.

[Black Dog]

That is what?

Maybe you should read it, it's pretty clear.

False equivalence? You're the one that broached the subject of a given culture in relation to crimes in a given nation.

Yeah: and...?

[Derek 2.0]

Maybe you should read it, it's pretty clear.

I did read it, and it doesn't address the questions I posed.

Yeah: and...?

Hey, "gun culture", as a cause for crime, is your strawman.

[Black Dog]

I did read it, and it doesn't address the questions I posed.

Your failure to understand things that aren't in black and white is entirely your problem. Here's another example:

Hey, "gun culture", as a cause for crime, is your strawman.

Nope. The United State's gun culture (as opposed to New Zealand's or Canada's or Switzerland's) is partly to blame for gun crime in the United States.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Black Dog

[Derek 2.0]

Your failure to understand things that aren't in black and white is entirely your problem. Here's another example:

You stated access to guns attributed to higher crime rates in the United States, yet when confronted with New Zealand and the access to guns in that country, a country with far lower crime rates, you state New Zealand has lower crime rates, hence lower gun crimes.......

So which is it? Guns create crime or crime creates gun violence?

Nope. The United State's gun culture (as opposed to New Zealand's or Canada's or Switzerland's) is partly to blame for gun crime in the United States.

So a societies differing culture can lend to increased crime rates? As such, comparing the New Zealand/Canadian/Swiss culture to that of the United States results in a false positive?

So why compare crimes rates of the United States, what with its differing culture, to that of other Western Nations?

Sauce for the goose and all that.........

You talk of logic, as did I........in just several pages are the displays of logic of both sides of this debate........and you wonder why the gun rights camp continues to win in the United States.........

[Black Dog]

You stated access to guns attributed to higher crime rates in the United States, yet when confronted with New Zealand and the access to guns in that country, a country with far lower crime rates, you state New Zealand has lower crime rates, hence lower gun crimes.......

So which is it? Guns create crime or crime creates gun violence?

This is exactly what I was talking about above, the black and white world view. And it's already been asked and answered.

So why compare crimes rates of the United States, what with its differing culture, to that of other Western Nations?[

Good question: why did you make that comparison?

You talk of logic, as did I........in just several pages are the displays of logic of both sides of this debate........and you wonder why the gun rights camp continues to win in the United States.........

Yes we're all familiar with your smug blend of triumphalism, goal post-shifting and "just-so" stories that have been your stock in trade on this issue (and this issue alone: you seldom comment on anything else, even before you inexplicably came back from being banned). The connection with the larger debate in the U.S is, however, non-existent, no matter how much you'd like to associate yourself with a "winning" side.

[Derek 2.0]

This is exactly what I was talking about above, the black and white world view. And it's already been asked and answered.

Well no, it hasn't, you cited reasons for such violence......then contradicted yourself.

Good question: why did you make that comparison?

Simple, I stated the clear and understandable difference between both nations and the causes of differing levels of gun crime in each nation.

Yes we're all familiar with your smug blend of triumphalism, goal post-shifting and "just-so" stories that have been your stock in trade on this issue (and this issue alone: you seldom comment on anything else, even before you inexplicably came back from being banned). The connection with the larger debate in the U.S is, however, non-existent, no matter how much you'd like to associate yourself with a "winning" side.

Did you not first raise the point of gun owning MLW members opinions and "defense" of gun rights in this thread? One would assume you desired to continue the discussion. As a lifetime endowment member of the NRA, I very much so feel entitled to associate myself with the "winning side", well discussing gun rights/control politics, both in the United States and in Canada.

As I've said already, in countless discussions on this topic through the years, both sides of the fence return to the same "talking points", but failing to reach an amicable resolution each time. That would clearly indicate a stalemate, but as evident by reality, the "push" goes to gun owners.

So the question returns to at what point does the losing side change their approach to further address the actual causes of gun violence?

In this example of the Virginia shooting, in your opinion, outside of unobtainable gun control laws, what other measures could have helped reduce the probability of this violent crime occurring? Clearly the shooter was mentally imbalanced, could it not be said that further access to treatment could have helped mitigate this example, like countless other cases?

Edited September 4, 2015 by Derek 2.0

[H10]

Its not America's gun culture that is the problem, it is America's violence culture that is the problem. A country founded on violence, where the government regulated violence and endorsed people to engage in behaving outside the law for hundreds of years using armed terrorist bands, has created a culture of violence plain and simple. From the Wild Wild West to the Ku Klux Klan to the confederates and stealing indian land and african people and so on. America has an addiction to violence and war and crime and it is all state sanctioned. When you give an 18 year old guns unlimited send them over to Iraq and say have fun, then expect literally hundreds of thousands of these young men to return home in America and adjust normally, its insane! America's violence culture is the real problem, but that tears at the heart of the fabric of who they are. So instead everything else will get blamed, jews, guns, money, poverty, blah blah blah