the definition of a Neocon

[bush_cheney2004]

...Re: Neoliberalism and Neoconservativism. I said there is a difference, but ultimately Neoliberals and Neoconservatives push the same global economic agenda and Neoliberals also use military force to advance that agenda e.g. Tony Blair, and the other instances mentioned and that's why the movements aren't all that different.

If one conflates, corrupts, and bastardizes the definition of what a "neocon" actually is, then yes, anybody can be a "neocon". The world trembles in fear at the feet of Canadian "neocons".

[ReeferMadness]

Agreed. Neocon refers very specifically to a subset of the Republican party. The term bares no relation to Canadian Conservatives, who in most cases would be considered pretty far left of the Democrats in the US.

This is just a lame attempt to control language. And as for the claim that Canadian neocons are left of Democrats, well, whatever.

[G Huxley]

Bush/Cheney2004 my definition is pretty universally obvious. If people dislike it it is more out of the fact that they want to obscure the fact that this ideology is common in Canada.

[bush_cheney2004]

Bush/Cheney2004 my definition is pretty universally obvious. If people dislike it it is more out of the fact that they want to obscure the fact that this ideology is common in Canada.

Even if that were true, it still doesn't matter. Canada lacks the means and will to execute "neocon" foreign policy.

But I understand the need to play domestic political games with imported, American labels...an election is coming !

Edited August 26, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

[TimG]

There are many cases where the word used by people to describe themselves is different from the word used by people who disagree with them. In these cases the word used by political opponents invariably takes on a negative connotation and is only used only by people that wish to belittle an opponent. Despite this obvious association the political opponents will always insist the words are 'descriptive' and not 'intended to be insulting' which is complete BS. They want to use the words precisely because they see it as a way to further their preferred political narrative.

Neo-con is one of those words. Denier and alarmist are other examples.

Edited August 26, 2015 by TimG

[Bryan]

Bryan: I never said that Clark was a Conservative Party Member, I said that he was a conservative.

What you said was:

...despite Clark's having been a Conservative Prime Minister...

Which he never was.

His party were called The Progressive Conservatives. Thus he identified as a conservative.

No he didn't. Clark is a Red Tory. The "Progressive" in Progressive Conservative. He was always on the far left edge of a party that was already centre-left. He very openly rejected any and all efforts of the conservative movement in Canada whether within or outside of the PCs.

[G Huxley]

Since Clark's party, which identified itself as conservative as well as progressive combined with the Reform party to create the Conservative party Clark can be considered a grandfather of the party. So to call him not a conservative is totally absurd.

Edited August 27, 2015 by G Huxley

[Bryan]

Since Clark's party, which identified itself as conservative as well as progressive combined with the Reform party to create the Conservative party Clark can be considered a grandfather of the party.

Absolutely not. Clark rejected the conservative movement in its entirety, and he did not join the Reform Party/Canadian Alliance.

[Derek 2.0]

Bush/Cheney2004 The current Canadian conservative movement came to power on the wings of the American neoconservative movement during the Bush years and have continually emulated the American Neoconservatives in pretty much all their policies.

Countries have parallel political movements all the time. I don't know why this would surprise you. For instance Spain's political party in the 1940s had the same basic ideology as neighbouring Portugal's during the same period.

Ahh, not quite.......the current Canadian conservative movement came about well George H Bush was seeking the Republican nomination (which he lost to Reagan), Joe Clark was getting tossed after his first tenure as PCP leader (which he snatched from Mulroney on a second ballot) and Prime Minister, the Federal Social Credit party had yet to blend with the Progressive Conservatives, and Thatcher was Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.....

The apt description (among ourselves anyways) for the movement is 1980 Conservative.......even though the movement had its first rumblings going back to the 1960s with Barry Goldwater, and its first winner in the Spring of 1979:

But, I do agree fully with parallel movements......you're just not going back far enough

[Derek 2.0]

And I agree on your conclusion as to what a Neocon is.......

[G Huxley]

Well thanks for that Derek!

And thanks for reminding that the neocon movement itself has it's predecessors/antecessors.

"Absolutely not. Clark rejected the conservative movement in its entirety, and he did not join the Reform Party/Canadian Alliance. " -Bryan

Well logically the Reform Party/Canadian Alliance aren't conservatives. Conservative Grandpa Clark wasn't going to join that gang of upstart hooligans.

And would you? Their Prime Ministerial candidate for that party Stockwell Day is on the record for stating that mankind cohabited with dinosaurs and faked that he had a degree from the University of Victoria. If I was a real conservative like Clark frankly I'd be completely embarassed by those buffoons and offended/appalled that they'd ask his party to join them.

Edited August 28, 2015 by G Huxley

[Derek 2.0]

Well logically the Reform Party/Canadian Alliance aren't conservatives. Conservative Grandpa Clark wasn't going to join that gang of upstart hooligans.

No, the Reform/CA was a vocal mixture of varying type of conservatives.........."Grandpa Clark" rejected the CPC for the same reasons he rejected working with (the conservative) Socreds in 1979, which resulted in Clark losing his job as Prime Minister......

Their Prime Ministerial candidate for that party Stockwell Day is on the record for stating that mankind cohabited with dinosaurs and faked that he had a degree from the University of Victoria. If I was a real conservative like Clark frankly I'd be completely embarassed by those buffoons and offended/appalled that they'd ask his party to join them.

Stockwell Day, like George W Bush, wasn't/isn't a Neocon, but a social conservative........

[G Huxley]

If George W. Bush wasn't/isn't a neocon then no one is a Neocon. By comparing Stockwell Day to Bush you're making the best case possible that Day is a neocon. In fact is Day was heavily involved in getting Southern Baptist evolution denying schools into Alberta, which was an importation from the Neocon movement in the States which had heavy endorsement from the Southern Baptists (Bush claimed to have converted to them).

The Socreds were far righters too and weren't really 'conservatives.' I can understand why he rejected them too. If only Hindenburg and Von Papen had done the same in their time. There's a difference from the far right/radical right and conservatism.

[bush_cheney2004]

If George W. Bush wasn't/isn't a neocon then no one is a Neocon.

No...as stated above, George W. Bush was not a "neocon". The term has specific meaning and American context/history. Maintaining such a fiction is just an obvious partisan political spasm and association that doesn't apply to Canada anyway.

http://blogcritics.org/is-bush-a-neocon/

[Derek 2.0]

No...as stated above, George W. Bush was not a "neocon". The term has specific meaning and American context/history. Maintaining such a fiction is just an obvious partisan political spasm and association that doesn't apply to Canada anyway.

http://blogcritics.org/is-bush-a-neocon/

Exactly, GWB wasn't a Neocon, but he did have Neocons in his administration........

[Moonlight Graham]

Stockwell Day, like George W Bush, wasn't/isn't a Neocon, but a social conservative........

And how would you describe GWB's foreign policy? Pre-9/11, or at least pre-2000 election, dubya probably wasn't a neocon (i don't think he had the intellectual interest in foreign policy that ie: Rumsfield or Wolfowitz had), but likely he had been somewhat sympathetic to the neocon agenda. Post-9/11 his neocon-dominated cabinet convinced him to be a neocon darn quick. So yes, post-9/11 there's no question whatsoever that Bush was a neocon given his policies and support for policies.

[bush_cheney2004]

.... So yes, post-9/11 there's no question whatsoever that Bush was a neocon given his policies and support for policies.

Nope....George W. Bush largely continued the foreign policies of the Clinton administration and U.S. Public Law (1998) for regime change in Iraq. So was Bill Clinton a "neocon" too ?

[G Huxley]

Remember his Axis of Evil? AKA the Neocon hitlist?

[Derek 2.0]

And how would you describe GWB's foreign policy? Pre-9/11, or at least pre-2000 election, dubya probably wasn't a neocon (i don't think he had the intellectual interest in foreign policy that ie: Rumsfield or Wolfowitz had), but likely he had been somewhat sympathetic to the neocon agenda. Post-9/11 his neocon-dominated cabinet convinced him to be a neocon darn quick. So yes, post-9/11 there's no question whatsoever that Bush was a neocon given his policies and support for policies.

No, GWB wasn't a Neocon, though as said, portions of his administration were. George Walker Bush's beliefs, from his own book no doubt, stem from his own, Judeo-Christian, moral beliefs..........hence the simplistic, yet what he felt true, "Axis of evil" and "with us or against us" mantras, which very much so continues along the black and white themes of the bible.......good versus evil, right versus wrong etc......

Such beliefs are not found within neoconservative philosophy, which very much so are far more complex and nuanced, with a strategic undercurrent as backbone......for some, the post 9/11 World presents varied opportunities to further neocon beliefs, for others, like GWB, the post 9/11 world was seen as a struggle of good versus evil.

George Walker Bush isn't a neocon, nor is Jeb, but their farther, without a doubt, encompassed many neocon traits, likely from his time at the CIA and his role during the closing act in the defeat against Worldwide Communism.

[Derek 2.0]

Nope....George W. Bush largely continued the foreign policies of the Clinton administration and U.S. Public Law (1998) for regime change in Iraq. So was Bill Clinton a "neocon" too ?

Or Hillary for voting in support of the invasion of Iraq? Clearly not..........

[Derek 2.0]

Remember his Axis of Evil? AKA the Neocon hitlist?

What of it? We had an "Axis of evil" before, surely you don't feel Churchill, FDR, Stalin and King were Neocons?

[G Huxley]

Yes I would describe Hillary as a Neocon in a flash. Also Libya, Syria etc. etc. etc.

GWB was both a Theocon like Ashcroft etc., and a Neocon. The Neocons were quite content to gain the backing of the Theocons as a means of continuing their power.

Edited August 29, 2015 by G Huxley

[Moonlight Graham]

No, GWB wasn't a Neocon, though as said, portions of his administration were. George Walker Bush's beliefs, from his own book no doubt, stem from his own, Judeo-Christian, moral beliefs..........hence the simplistic, yet what he felt true, "Axis of evil" and "with us or against us" mantras, which very much so continues along the black and white themes of the bible.......good versus evil, right versus wrong etc......

Such beliefs are not found within neoconservative philosophy, which very much so are far more complex and nuanced, with a strategic undercurrent as backbone......for some, the post 9/11 World presents varied opportunities to further neocon beliefs, for others, like GWB, the post 9/11 world was seen as a struggle of good versus evil.

How is a "good vs evil" mentality and neoconservatism mutually exclusive? His judeo-christian beliefs...well, every single neocon I can name is either a jew or a christian. Here's the neocon think-tank PNAC's declared goals in their Statement of Principles:

• We need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global

responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;

• We need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our

interests and values;

• We need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;

• We need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an

international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.

Sounds like every post-9/11 speech Bush ever made.

George Walker Bush isn't a neocon, nor is Jeb, but their farther, without a doubt, encompassed many neocon traits, likely from his time at the CIA and his role during the closing act in the defeat against Worldwide Communism.

Jeb is a neocon. He signed the above PNAC Statement of Principles. The advisors he's hired for his POTUS campaign is now filled with neocons, including Paul Wolfowitz.

[Derek 2.0]

How is a "good vs evil" mentality and neoconservatism mutually exclusive?

I never said it was.

Jeb is a neocon. He signed the above PNAC Statement of Principles.

Source?

The advisors he's hired for his POTUS campaign is now filled with neocons, including Paul Wolfowitz.

Source? (But I wouldn't be the least surprised)

[Argus]

It's easy to read a person's politics by reading their posts. The previous poster in that thread said that Joe Clark isn't a conservative (despite Clark's having been a Conservative Prime Minister.) Why wasn't that person's posts banned for saying Clark wasn't a conservative despite actually having been a conservative PM of Canada???

"It's easy to read a person's politics by reading their posts."

Really? And yet you think it's impossible to read someone's politics by watching them speak and seeing what they do in life over a period of years?

I said Clark wasn't a conservative, not that he wasn't a Conservative. Pay attention. There's a difference. Nor was he a conservative or a Conservative prime minister, he was a Progressive Conservative Prime Minister, a 'red tory' as they call them, from the party's progressive side.