Dutch Consider Forced Use Of Dutch in Religious

[maplesyrup]

I said I was not condoning the murder - can't you read?

[The Terrible Sweal]

I read:

I am not condoning the murder of the dutch van Goth, but unfortunately he brought it on himself with his disgusting descriptions of Muslim behaviour.

I am challenging:

... he brought it on himself with his disgusting descriptions of Muslim behaviour.

The deficiency in reading is thine, not mine, it would seem. Do you intend to respond substantively or not?

[maplesyrup]

This conversation has been continued in the international forum. I have responded there.

[The Terrible Sweal]

I don't believe that you have addressed this point there.

[The Terrible Sweal]

I've double checked -- it's funny. I can see no reference whatsoever over there of any response at all to my questions here.

I can't imagine how you could be so mistaken in this regard.

[maplesyrup]

I know you are all fired up about this, but you are making inaccurate comments.

Please go to "Anti-Muslim Backlash in Holland" thread in the "Rest of the World" area for my response.

[The Terrible Sweal]

That's where I looked. You have not responded to these comments there at all, and it is thus you who is being "inaccurate".

[maplesyrup]

Please stop wasting mine and everyone else's time by being obstinate. I have posted my responses on the other thread.

[The Terrible Sweal]

You did not. You are either mistaken or lying.

[kimmy]

Moderate and peaceful Muslims will need to be more pro-active in denouncing the extremists in their community.

There's a problem with that point of view. You are purporting to place a positive obligation to do something on people who have done no wrong.

You're not a child abuser are you? No? Well, then why aren't you out campaiging against child abuse?

You're not a con-artist are you? No? How odd that you haven't built a website against grifters, then.

I wouldn't say an obligation. I would say that it's in their self interest to do so.

Your examples are a little off the mark. I'll offer a couple that I think are a better parallel with the dilemna a moderate Muslim might face.

Imagine I'm a Pro Life activist. Imagine I'm going to meetings, I'm handing out pamphlets, I'm doing whatever Pro Life activists do to promote their beliefs peacefully. In the course of doing so, I encounter amongst my group some people who have angry and extreme views about abortion providers. After talking with them, I start getting the idea that they might seriously be capable of plotting a clinic bombing or a sniper-attack on an abortion clinic worker.

If I'm truly sincere in my pro-life beliefs then I owe it to those beliefs to take some kind of action. First off, because a clinic bombing or sniper-attack would bring disrepute upon the whole pro-life movement. And secondly because committing murder is in itself against my pro-life beliefs.

Or, imagine I'm a gay rights advocate. If some bozo opens a chapter of the Man-Boy Love Association in my city, I'm going to war against them, because their fucked up beliefs are going to turn public opinion against the work that I'm trying to do, even though I don't have any personal connection with them other than being gay. In fact, the presense of the Man-Boy Love Association probably puts my own personal safety at risk.

Friendly, easy-going moderate Muslims ought to recognize the threat posed to their own well-being by the small fringe of radicals in their community. Firstly, because the bad apples bring negative attention to the whole community (as being seen in Holland right now) and secondly, because if rejecting hate is truly a core belief in Islam, then they owe it to their beliefs to act against the extremists in their own community.

-kimmy

[caesar]

Moderate and peaceful Muslims will need to be more pro-active in denouncing the extremists in their community.

Why????? Are you pro active denouncing the extremists in the Christianity religion. Many have done great harm in the name of Christianity. Protestants and Catholics in Ireland are both Christians; remember how they have been trying to kill each other off for years with terroristic tactics. There are radicals and extremists in all religions and other institutions. We would be apologizing for everyone and everything.

[Neal.F.]

August, I disagree that Holland brought it on themselves by being part of the coalition of the willing.

Radical Moslems have been building terror cells covertly in Europe for years, because the lefty liberal regimes permitted it. Just like Canada, a good base of operations for them. Don't worry. they'll strike us too, once they deem the time is right.

The Moslems knew the jig was up in Holland when the people finally threw out the loony left and elected the Christian Democrats of Balkenende, and sent a significant number of List Pym Fortuyn candidates to parliament.

This is going to send liberals who post here over the edge, but it is high time we all wised up in the west. We are at WAR, whether our blissfully ignorant PM wishes to acknowledge that fact or not.

It is time we ended the moronic practice of allowing Quebec to run its own immigration system. They are bringing in Francophone Moslems by the tens of thousands each year, from Algeria, Tunisia & Lebanon (now... who, recently deceased, operated from and brought misery and death to those very places?) and soon, given the negative birthrate and high abortion in quebec, Moslems will have considerable clout . And the problem is not confined to Quebec. many of them use Quebec's policy to enter Canada by the back door. and if canada changes its own immigration policy there will remain the leak along the Ottawa river.

I think also, that we should place an immediate moratorium on all Islamic immigration to canada, and serve notice to everyone, that anyone caught engaging in terroist conspiracies, and knowingly assisting terrorists in any way, be it financial, through membership, or logistical even moral support, should be subject to immediate deportation, and in cases where citizenship already exists, citizenship is to be revoked. As for canadians born here who participate in terrorism in any way described above, throw them in jail, or offer them a one way ticket to the Moslem police state of their choice, that will accept them.

I think the Dutch seem to be waking up to the error of their ways and hopefully soon will implement such policies. Immigration is fine when you have people who are willing to play by your rules.

These Sharia courts have crossed that line. That shows clearly that they want to remake our Judeo-Christian based society in the image of the very Islamofascist police states they left.

Let me make myself very clear: I WELCOME immigrants who want to come and enrich our society by being constructive participants, and accepting our way of doing things.

There can only be ONE law in the country that all are subject to, regardless of race or CREED.

[kimmy]

Moderate and peaceful Muslims will need to be more pro-active in denouncing the extremists in their community.

Why?????

I explained "why" pretty thoroughly in my previous post to Terrible Sweal.

Are you pro active denouncing the extremists in the Christianity religion. 

I'm not a Christian. I'm not a member of that community. So the comparison you're hoping to make doesn't apply.

But yes, I have taken part in denouncing what I saw as extremist Christians. I've written letters and editorials. Not that my voice is even needed in this regard, since our society as a whole keeps a tight watch on Christians. There is vigourous public debate amongst Christians about all issues within the church. There's no equivalent within the Muslim community, as far as I can tell.

Many have done great harm in the name of Christianity.  Protestants and Catholics in Ireland are both Christians;  remember how they have been trying to kill each other off for years with terroristic tactics.

Yes, I'm aware of the situation in Ireland. What has that got to do with anything?

There are radicals and extremists in all religions and other institutions.  We would be apologizing for everyone and everything.

We should not be apologizing for anyone or anything. That's a large part of the problem, as I see it at least. We hold Muslims and others to lower standards because we don't want to seem intolerant.

-kimmy

[Remus]

People need to learn the language of the country they move to, to help prevent them from being ghettoized or isolated.

I know if I were hanging around with a bunch of Quebeckers in BC and they started talking about bombing a building in downtown Vancouver, there would probably be a lot more chance of my reporting it to the authorities if I spoke English as well as French.

What if they were speaking Klingon?

[The Terrible Sweal]

Y'know, I just remembered ... according to Islamic doctrine, the Holy Koran cannot be translated and still remain the Holy Koran. If I recall correctly, the product of a translation is no longer considered to be 'authoritatively holy'.

Based on this, to require Islamic religious services to be conducted in a language other than Arabic would be effectively a ban on Islamic worship.

[August1991]

August, I disagree that Holland brought it on themselves by being part of the coalition of the willing.

Neal, I realize that Internet Forums rely on smiley faces to indicate sarcasm, and irony. I hoped I could achieve the same with mere words. I guess I failed.

IOW, Neal, I did not mean that Holland is to blame for this. Instead, I meant that any individual who stands up to a bully may possibly suffer.

according to Islamic doctrine, the Holy Koran cannot be translated and still remain the Holy Koran. If I recall correctly, the product of a translation is no longer considered to be 'authoritatively holy'.

A peculiarity of Islam is that it arrived after the ability to write down methodically what people say. Hence, there is a definitive version of the Koran. And the words of Mohammed, as reported in the Koran, are considered to be the words of God. He was the witness, or the messenger.

A very, very rough equivalent exists almost in English with the King James Version and Shakespeare.

For Arabic speakers, true language stopped with the Koran - it contains all the grammar, words and spelling necessary for existence. It is called classical Arabic.

You cannot imagine the frenzied debate that can ensue from a misquote of the Koran.

----

To me, Galileo and Voltaire were important people in World Civilization. I could note too Copernicus. They put together what we now call the "Scientific Method". It amounts to being an "intelligent sceptic".

In too many countries, people are clueless about this. At most, young people realize that it's cool "to get it".

I hope I am not straying too far from the thread's intent but it seems to me that, western education à la Canadienne will probably make many young immigrants sceptically ask why they should marry some one from back home.

This is an old issue.

[caesar]

I just remembered ... according to Islamic doctrine, the Holy Koran cannot be translated and still remain the Holy Koran. If I recall correctly, the product of a translation is no longer considered to be 'authoritatively holy

Doesn't the Catholic religion use Latin and the Jewish religion uses their own language.

Are we going back to the dark ages????

[August1991]

All Muslims pray in Arabic. Speak Urdu or Farsi or "slang" at home. But repeat prayers in classical Arabic.

"Halloweth be His name... Thy Kingdom come..."

All Catholics used to sit though Mass in Latin.

Go figure.

Figure? Imagine the complexity of hip-hop language, multiply by 100, and then imagine how easy it is to be excluded because you "don't get it".

[Neal.F.]

 

August, I disagree that Holland brought it on themselves by being part of the coalition of the willing.

Neal, I realize that Internet Forums rely on smiley faces to indicate sarcasm, and irony. I hoped I could achieve the same with mere words. I guess I failed.

IOW, Neal, I did not mean that Holland is to blame for this. Instead, I meant that any individual who stands up to a bully may possibly suffer.

August, My absence from this forum has been rather prolonged, and I have not yet had the cjhance to become accustomed to your personality yet, so forgive me for misinterpreting your intent.

I believe that while one might get a bloody nose for standing up to a bully, ONCE, more often than not the bully (and others like him) will leave him alone once they see he is willing to stand up for himself. That is my observation from the schoolyard to the world stage.

On the other hand, whistling past the graveyard will yield even greater consequences down the road.

I have said dozens of times, that had Britain & France been willing to stand up to a bully named Hitler in '37, at the cost of very few men, they could have spared the world the carnage that resulted as a result of their failure to act.

Likewise, I beleive that the actions being taken by the Coalition of the Willing at this time, while costing some lives, will in the long run spare us unspeakable carnage in the future. That means going after Islamofascists abroad, and reining them in at home.

Are there mistakes being made? Certainly. Mistakes are made in any war. War being what it is, does not happen in a controlled environment, but is rather subject to factors beyond anyone;'s control. The biggest mistake of all would be failure to act decisively, since thugs and bullies understand force alone. They have no fear of lawyers and International Criminal Courts in The Hague.

I think that GWB should concentrate on working with Putin, maybe not on Iraq, but on other anti-terrorist operations. Russia could become a valuable ally long term in creating a balance to keep China in check. Also Friendly relations with Russia could produce an atmosphere whereby control over loose nuclear materials and technology can be regained.

[caesar]

Likewise, I beleive that the actions being taken by the Coalition of the Willing at this time, while costing some lives, will in the long run spare us unspeakable carnage in the future. That means going after Islamofascists abroad, and reining them in at home.

Dream on; all this illegal invasion has done is swelled the rank of terrorist movements as they realize that the USA is not to be trusted. That their homeland could be the next target.l That l;egal justification is not needed for the USA. It is not a war; never was declared.

[kimmy]

Some people might cite Australia's participation in the Iraq invasion as the reason for Al Qaeda's enmity towards the Aussies. They'd be wrong, of course; the Bali bombing, targetting a resort popular with western tourists but Aussies in particular, was of course prior to the Iraq invasion.

Well, they'd reply, maybe it's because of Australia's participation in the Afghanistan invasion. Well, not really. Australia has been on Bin Laden's hit list since 1999, before the Afghanistan invasion. Bin Laden has spoken of Australia's role in the UN-approved intervention in East Timor as an outrage against Islam.

Perhaps the apologists would argue that the UN intervention in East Timor is an attack on the sovereignty of the Muslim state of Indonesia. Perhaps the apologists would look for some way in which the Catholic East Timorese somehow provoked their slaughter at the hands of the Muslim militias. Perhaps if the Aussies had just looked the other way, if they'd ignored the UN resolution to stop the slaughter in their own back yard, maybe those 88 Aussie tourists wouldn't have been killed in Bali. But that seems to me a long way to bend over to appease the terrorists.

I bring up the Aussies and East Timor because it strikes me as a good example of the problem of this mentality that the Islamist terrorists are just sticking up for their people. The problem, specifically, is with who decides what the Islamists will take offense to or strike back against. We don't decide what they decide is worth fighting over. The UN doesn't decide. A rational, impartial observer doesn't decide what the Islamists will fight against. The Islamists decided what they will fight against. They decided that the "illegal" Iraq invasion was an attack on Islam... but they also decided that the UN-approved, Chomsky-endorsed, genocide-preventing intervention in East Timor was an attack on Islam. I just don't trust the judgment of the terrorists, and shaping our world policy to take into account what they might view as an insult is just plain insanity.

-kimmy

[maplesyrup]

Fear replaces tolerance as racism sweeps Holland

Canada is going to have to undergo some serious changes in policy if we are to avoid what has happened in Holland.

Any immigrants need to be forced to learn English and/or French, perhaps both, if they wish to live in Canada.

No religious services in a foreign language, period. It is just too expensive for our police foces to deal with the translation aspects.

Anyone who preaches any kind of violence needs to be deported immediately.

Any immigrant community need to be encouraged to integrate into the mainstream Canadian commnity, so the immigrant ghettos don't get caught up in violent protests over issues that are taking place in some foreign land, and have nothing whatsoever to do with Canada.

If we don't act with preventative medicine, we are going to have an incident, emotions will run high, tolerance will drop, and the right will rise in popularity. We sure don't want that to happen, do we!

[Argus]

Canada is going to have to undergo some serious changes in policy if we are to avoid what has happened in Holland.

Any immigrants need to be forced to learn English and/or French, perhaps both, if they wish to live in Canada. 

This has been proposed numerous times, but the immigration industry - and yes, it is an industry - has always sucessfully lobbied against it.

No religious services in a foreign language, period. It is just too expensive for our police foces to deal with the translation aspects.

Not really. The problem is that if the police started monitoring or recording religious sermons - in any language - there would be an uproar. The problem here is not that the Muslim religious figures are preaching hatred in a language the authorities do not understand. It is that they are preaching hatred to an accepting audience which neither complains nor reports them.

Think about it. If a Catholic priest gave a sermon daming Jews and calling on the righteous to kill shun Jews and cooperate in destroying non-Catholics do you really think there wouldn't be complaints to both the Church hierarchy and the authorities? It does not really matter if he preaches in French to a French audience or English to an English audience. The commonality is that Catholic priests - or Presbyterian, Anglican, Baptist etc. ministers would be in front of a Canadian audience, not an audience made up of people who grew up in the middle east.

Anyone who preaches any kind of violence needs to be deported immediately.

For once, I agree with you. Small chance of that happening, though. We can't even immediately deport people who COMMIT violence, never mind those who preach it. It takes years of hearings to deport someone here legally, whether they are drug barons, rapists, child molesters, or whatever.

Any immigrant community need to be encouraged to integrate into the mainstream Canadian commnity, so the immigrant ghettos don't get caught up in violent protests over issues that are taking place in some foreign land, and have nothing whatsoever to do with Canada.

How un-Canadian of you to say so. It is government policy, much admired and agreed upon by the chattering classes - not to mention the NDP - that minority communities be encouraged to retain their culture and language through however many generations are possible.

And so they do. Most of you don't remember the court trials of a pair of Armenian terrorists in Ottawa in the early eighties. They were Canadian born, bur raised in the Armenian community in Montreal. They attacked the Turkish embassy, murdering a Canadian security guard outside. During their trials, busloads of "Canadians" of Armenian descent made the journey every day to Ottawa from Montreal to support their heroes.

More recently we had the spectacle of Serbian "Canadians" violently attacking police in both Ottawa and Montreal, outraged that we were taking part in the coallition to stop the Serb attacks in Kosovo. And, of course, we are all very much aware - or should be - that there exists considerable support for terrorism against Israel, the US, and other non muslims among Canada's Muslim population, most of which is foreign born. Thus when a Muslim imam or mullah makes a fiery anti-american or anti-Jewish sermon in his mosque he has little fear of outraged reaction. Yes, some may disapprove, but not enough to get very upset about - certainly not enough to complain to authorities.

You might be interested in this from several years back.

Hindunet on Muslims

[August1991]

I just don't trust the judgment of the terrorists, and shaping our world policy to take into account what they might view as an insult is just plain insanity.

Good post, Kimmy. I agree.

If a Catholic priest gave a sermon daming Jews and calling on the righteous to kill shun Jews and cooperate in destroying non-Catholics do you really think there wouldn't be complaints to both the Church hierarchy and the authorities?

There is a Catholic hierarchy. If a Protestant pastor makes a racist sermon, would you blame another Protestant?

The problem is that if the police started monitoring or recording religious sermons - in any language - there would be an uproar.

Why?

Most of you don't remember the court trials of a pair of Armenian terrorists in Ottawa in the early eighties. They were Canadian born, bur raised in the Armenian community in Montreal. They attacked the Turkish embassy, murdering a Canadian security guard outside.

Good example, I remember it. There were Fenians too.

I see a difference with Al-Qaeda or Islamofascists. Immigrants who bring their blood-feuds to the New World eventually look foolish.

In the case of these Islamists, we are facing people who come from the 12th century and they firmly believe their world view is right.

I think that GWB should concentrate on working with Putin, maybe not on Iraq, but on other anti-terrorist operations.

Welcome back, Neal. I agree with you and I think Russia is the wild card in this issue.

[caesar]

You want ALL religious services in English only??? Think you would get a lot of static from Catholics which I believe uses latin in some services; The Jewish religion services use a lot of Hebrew do they not?????

This is a dumb idea. Just do not allow in immigrants who are not ready to embrace Canada as their home and wish to dabble in their homeland politics. Family ties are fine but there must be no political actions within their old homeland.