Truth and Reconciliation... Legitimacy

[Smallc]

Yes and you're going to be eternally frustrated.

Why do you beat your head against brick walls?

Aboriginal rights are not going to 'go away' because you said so.

They're not going to go away at all.

You're extremely short sighted. 50 years from now, perhaps far sooner, I think you'd be surprised.

[Smallc]

None of your business.

Their free choice.

Your straw men are piled so high they're blocking the sun.

[Smallc]

But you are attempting it through a concept of assimilation. Been tried, didnt work.

I'm attempting nothing of the sort. Aboriginal cultures and languages should be protected the same way that the French Language is now. It would be far more useful than the status quo. What I'm talking about is the interaction of aboriginals with society and the government. It's holding them back. You don't live this every day, so you have no idea. Most people don't, and that's okay. I do.

[jacee]

Canada is a society that allows people to live where they want while treating them equally under the law. The special consideration that the French language and to a much lesser extent the Quebecois get is nothing like what separates aboriginal people from the rest of us. I would welcome a change to that regime protecting language and culture but making them equal in every other way. It would do a great deal to improve their lives in a generation or so.

That's what was said about the residential schools ... the ones that terrorized and brutalized Indigenous children and destroyed families.

I think perhaps respecting them as people and not sticking your mouth in their business where it doesn't belong would be a good plan for you.

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[On Guard for Thee]

I'm attempting nothing of the sort. Aboriginal cultures and languages should be protected the same way that the French Language is now. It would be far more useful than the status quo. What I'm talking about is the interaction of aboriginals with society and the government. It's holding them back. You don't live this every day, so you have no idea. Most people don't, and that's okay. I do.

You seem to assume that anyone who disagrees with you has....no idea. That is very telling.

[dre]

I do not believe that somebody deserves to be compensated for something done to their grandparents.

So if I kill your grand parents and take an estate that would have been yours, then my children should just get to keep it while you live in squallor? Our justice system should not be concerned with the return of your families property? Really?

Odd sense of justice you have there...

[jacee]

You're extremely short sighted. 50 years from now, perhaps far sooner, I think you'd be surprised.

500 years ... and they are still here ... with their Aboriginal rights.

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[Smallc]

I think perhaps respecting them as people and not sticking your mouth in their business where it doesn't belong would be a good plan for you.

I think you would do well to stick to the conversation and not tell other participants what to think. People should be respected as equals. We made deals that condemn an entire 'race' to a life of squalor. It's time we fixed that together.

[Smallc]

500 years ... and they are still here ... with their Aboriginal rights.

Very shortsighted indeed. The future is one where people are seen as equal through the eyes of the law. You'll have to be happy with the past, I suspect.

[Smallc]

So if I kill your grand parents and take an estate that would have been yours, then my children should just get to keep it while you live in squallor? Our justice system should not be concerned with the return of your families property? Really?

That's a strange way to look at the natural change that has happened throughout human history.

[On Guard for Thee]

That's a strange way to look at the natural change that has happened throughout human history.

Did you actually read and understand the scenario that dre described...

[Smallc]

Did you actually read and understand the scenario that dre described...

But that isn't what happened. Agreements were signed to move aboriginal people out of the way, because they were seen as lesser and an impediment. We don't think that way anymore, and so we shouldn't be looking to agreements signed by people in a time when racism was the least of your concerns. This type of thinking is holding aboriginal people back. They were conquered...just in a much nicer way than usual. Now I'm going to go sleep with my aboriginal fiancee. You all have fun arguing from your ivory towers.

[jacee]

I think you would do well to stick to the conversation and not tell other participants what to think. People should be respected as equals. We made deals that condemn an entire 'race' to a life of squalor. It's time we fixed that together.

Your fake concern disgusts me because it is just a ploy to push your agenda of destroying Aboriginal rights.

Which isn't going to happen.

And it is particularly disgusting of you in this thread about thousands of children brutalized in a hundred year attempt to destroy Aboriginal rights.

They are still here.

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[dre]

That's a strange way to look at the natural change that has happened throughout human history.

What you are describing as "natural change" is one nation or people dominating another and taking all of their stuff. Its certainly true it has happened since the dawn of time. But most nations and people have agreed that its not the right way for property to change hands, so what you call "natural change" is now considered to be "theft and subjugation". We operate on a different set of legal principles now, and peoples that have been the victim of this "natural change" are having considerable success around the world seeking justice for these past wrongs.

You can whine about it... but thats how it is.

[On Guard for Thee]

But that isn't what happened. Agreements were signed to move aboriginal people out of the way, because they were seen as lesser and an impediment. We don't think that way anymore, and so we shouldn't be looking to agreements signed by people in a time when racism was the least of your concerns. This type of thinking is holding aboriginal people back. They were conquered...just in a much nicer way than usual. Now I'm going to go sleep with my aboriginal fiancee. You all have fun arguing from your ivory towers.

Oh buddy, I don't even know where to begin to respond to that. (Conquered, but in a nice way) for instance, leaves me to just shake my head. Have a nice sleep.

[jacee]

But that isn't what happened. Agreements were signed to move aboriginal people out of the way, because they were seen as lesser and an impediment. We don't think that way anymore,

You do.

You think you can think for them.

You already know what they think, but you don't respect their wishes. You want to impose your agenda on them.

and so we shouldn't be looking to agreements signed by people in a time when racism was the least of your concerns.

But we are keeping those agreements, or negotiating new ones.

This type of thinking is holding aboriginal people back.

How arrogant.

They were conquered.

No.

..just in a much nicer way than usual.

No it wasn't nice.

Six generations of children were brutalized.

Thousands died.

Families were destroyed.

Canada is not 'nice'.

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Edited June 9, 2015 by jacee

[jacee]

Interesting perspective by Pam Palmater, one of the founders of Idle No More:

It doesnt matter whether Canada ever agrees that its actions amounted to genocide - very few nation states ever admit to committing acts of genocide. What happened in residential schools were crimes back then, just as they are today. It was always against colonial and Canadian law to assault, rape, torture, starve, and murder children. Despite the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP), the federal government, and church officials all knowing what was happening in those schools, everyone with the power to stop it allowed it to continue. That is why residential schools had grave yards instead of playgrounds.

Canadas record would seem to suggest that the Indian problem was more about Indians refusing to die off, than maintaining different languages and cultures. The Indian problem was always about power and economics the sovereign Indigenous Nations who occupied and controlled the very territories coveted by early colonial governments refused to die off and therefore stood in the way of unfettered land acquisition, settlement, development, and resource extraction.

...

The vision of the treaties was always to share these lands. Despite all the horrors of residential schools, Indigenous Nations kept their treaty promises.

http://www.telesurtv.net/english/opinion/Canada-Was-Killing-Indians-Not-Cultures-20150608-0018.html.

I agree. No need to get hung up on a word: Crimes were committed, children suffered and died for a hundred years.

Families and communities were disrupted, treaties were ignored.

But Indigenous Peoples are still here, the treaties and Aboriginal rights remain, can't be 'deleted'.

It would be appropriate to move forward in the spirit of the original treaties - ie, according to the current law of Canada

We need to keep in mind too that this is just the beginning of truth:

The survivors of the day schools and the 'Sixties Scoop' are just preparing their class action suit. Their cases may address 'forcible removal of children' more directly since they were placed permanently in non-Indigenous homes.

The children who died in the schools have only begun to be identified. Considerable funding will be necessary to complete that records search, inform their families, find their burial places and memorialize 'the children who didn't go home'.

It has been suggested that a national memorial in Ottawa would be appropriate.

.

Edited June 9, 2015 by jacee

[jacee]

del

Edited June 9, 2015 by jacee

[Accountability Now]

Something just doesn't add up here.

That's because you're missing a few parameters of the equation

- the people will be pissed because the CBC will be rubbing native biases in everyone's noses

This is one part.

- the people will demand change i.e. crack down on natives, scrap the CBC, outlaw unicorns etc etc because of this

Oops....here's where you missed a part. You equate CBC's bias to lead directly to crack down on natives. The part you're missing is where I said that if natives continue to block development in a substantial way, then people are going to be woken from the sleep. So far we see Aboriginals as just something that happens....elsewhere. When it happens to us then people are going to be pissed....as shown in the reaction to Idle No More. They say Indians will only make it on TV if they are doing the 4 Ds....drunk, drumming, dancing or dead. The common average working Canadian will only really care if they get in the way of the other D...Development.

- the people the PEOPLE that is, will change our laws and our constitution...presumably the politicians and bureaucrats will just abandon nearly a century and a half of entrenched incrementalism, snap too it, and let the people do what they want when they want it...

Yup...that's how democracy works. People vote in governments that will pass laws and possibly rewrite constitutions that apply to what the people want. They don't need to abandon the whole thing, just rewrite parts that aren't working. It certainly wouldn't be a quick process and I would envision something like this would require a referendum to gain direct feedback....but it is certainly something that is possible.

just keep quiet and work behind the scenes to effect change slowly so as to not spook the ah...immigrants?

Again...immigrants are just one part of the equation. The main part is 30 million other Canadians who if aggravated will look for ways to remedy the situation. I bring up the point of immigrants because the argument that native supporters always bring up is how the native population is the fastest growing yet immigration alone in the last 7 years has equaled the entire native population. The thought that their vote will significantly affect direction is not a credible argument.

Further to that, I've been given to understand the CBC was so reviled and redundant that no one even watched it anymore, so how will enough Canadians even be aware of anything that makes them want to change everything?

Like I said, this is only one part of the equation. It will really hit the fan when further disruption and development blockades start to impact more working Canadians.

[cybercoma]

They're Canadians too. We're all in this together. It's time to end the apartheid.

By ending this apartheid you mean stop living up to our negotiated responsibilities for destroying their livelihoods and robbing them of their land and culture. Right?

[GostHacked]

The policy was integration, not extermination.

Integration means they lose their way of life. Some might be upset about that when people from another land come, take over and then tell you how to live your life.

[TimG]

By ending this apartheid you mean stop living up to our negotiated responsibilities for destroying their livelihoods and robbing them of their land and culture.

Get over yourself. Democracy means every citizen has equal rights and responsibilities. If you think that natives should be granted compensation for lost land rights then they should be compensated under the same rules that apply to everyone else (i.e. fee simple title - none of this aboriginal (a.k.a. apartheid) title garbage which is a racist concept to the core.

As for culture: every group in Canada is entitled to maintain their own culture on their own dime. It is not the responsibility of the rest of us to pay for their "culture".

Edited June 9, 2015 by TimG

[cybercoma]

Get over yourself.

Hook.

[cybercoma]

Seriously, Tim. What a pile of garbage. Are you really so ignorant of the history of our nation that you think there's some kind of equivalency between the loss experienced by first nations and everyone else?

[TimG]

Seriously, Tim. What a pile of garbage. Are you really so ignorant of the history of our nation that you think there's some kind of equivalency between the loss experienced by first nations and everyone else?

Nonsense. Democracy is built in the principal that everyone has equal rights. There is nothing more vile than people who argue that people should have different rights depending on what DNA they have because their ancestors were treated badly. If there are claims for lost property they should be addressed under the rules that apply to everyone else: fee simple title. Anything else is racist BS that has no place in a modern democracy. Edited June 9, 2015 by TimG