Big Guy Posted February 19, 2016 Report Posted February 19, 2016 Thank you for taking the time to research and prepare such a definitive and detailed response You may be absolutely correct but only time will unravel the facts of what occurred. I agree that at the moment, there are a number of "he said, she said" instances where there are at least two versions of what transpired. General Hillier has retired and has taken the time to describe history from his perspective. I do not blame him as I would do the same. His is the first "first hand" revelation of what was talked about behind closed doors. Most of the other participants are still politically active and have not created their memoirs to share what their perception remains of the discussions. I look forward top their "revelations" and until that time will have to be satisfied with reports from third parties. I have not previously read General Hilliers books but now intend to. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Army Guy Posted February 19, 2016 Report Posted February 19, 2016 Thank you for taking the time to read it, I had to cut it down so it is just the highlights. There are more insiders memoirs out there Paul martin mentions the mission in his book, along with other comments in the media from different agencies involved, that were displeased at the location chosen for the new mission, or the scope of the new mission...but you really have to dig through it all... There are always 2 sides to every story, some where in the middle lies the truth... I think you'll enjoy Hilliers books, I have a biases opinion of course, as I see him in a good light.....but it will give you a better grasp on the issues that faced the forces, and the struggle to fix them.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Big Guy Posted February 25, 2016 Report Posted February 25, 2016 (edited) For those still interested on why we went into Afghanistan I suggest that you view: Maj Gen (Ret'd) David Fraser: We learn nothing if we do not learn from the past. Some interesting comments about Fraser's interview: Fraser Interview Now this point of view from the same Fraser who carried our flag proudly into that hell hole of Afghanistan. Anybody still think that it was a good idea to go into Afghanistan and bomb Libya? Worth 159 Canadian lives and $billions in Canadian taxpayer money? Edited February 25, 2016 by Big Guy Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Army Guy Posted February 26, 2016 Report Posted February 26, 2016 Quote from Gen Fraser, I'm proud of Canada's commitment to Afghanistan, Afghanistan is a better place because of it......He may of pointed to some tactical errors....to which I added were made by our government.....not her soldiers..... But let us also not forget everyone of those soldiers volunteered to serve, everyone of them put his hand up and said I will serve in Afghanistan.....even after 10 years of sacrifice.....and knowing what all that meant , nothing was a secret we all knew what we were getting into ....most of those soldiers served in Afghanistan on average 3 or more times.....but that means nothing to the average Canadian.....That fact gets swept aside as government puppets, or it was their job, or what do they know.....Well they knew enough to keep coming back for multi tours..... The billions you talk about came out of the defense budget.....not foreign affairs, not any other Dept.....all of it was carved out of the Defense budget, meaning DND had to make major cuts in order to pay for "Canada's contribution" I get it , it is mostly made up of tax payers taxes.....but that tax payers money was meant to purchase equipment, training , instead it was funneled into paying for our government s decision....And what extra funding that was preyed out of tax payers wallets , was paid for in soldiers blood......Hell of way to support OUR military..... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Big Guy Posted February 26, 2016 Report Posted February 26, 2016 Quote from Gen Fraser, I'm proud of Canada's commitment to Afghanistan, Afghanistan is a better place because of it......He may of pointed to some tactical errors....to which I added were made by our government.....not her soldiers..... I would like to hear from the families of the 20,000 Afghans who were killed and the 30,000 who were wounded that Afghanistan is "a better place" because of Canadian involvement. If our military considers an expedition which cost Canadian taxpayers $20 billion, the lives of 159 Canadians, 20,000 Afghans killed and and 30,000 Afghans wounded and the "enemy" now in control of half of Afghanistan and negotiating at becoming part of the new government - to be a success, then what do they consider a failure? I do understand that most soldiers volunteered to go and to return a few times. That was their choice and they were paid for it. That should not detract from the fact that this war was a major mistake from which we seemed to learn very little. Oh, and as Gen Fraser said - Al Qaeda is now in Libya - that other place that we "liberated". BTW - Was not the reason for the invasion of Afghanistan to eradicate Al Qaeda? Success? I think not. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Army Guy Posted February 27, 2016 Report Posted February 27, 2016 I would like to hear from the families of the 20,000 Afghans who were killed and the 30,000 who were wounded that Afghanistan is "a better place" because of Canadian involvement. Not sure where you picked up the figure of 20,000 Afghans killed and 30,000 wounded, That can be directly attributed to the Canadian military or their actions. perhaps you can provide a source .... Another reason I ask, it was your source, Retired Gen Fraser opinions your bases your post on, and it was his words that said Afghanistan is a better place for our nations commitment....and now your calling his opinion into question.....I getting confused on this round and round conversation.....If you dont trust his comments why use them in the first place.....now you want to cherry pick from his statements.....sorry it does not work for me ... If our military considers an expedition which cost Canadian taxpayers $20 billion, the lives of 159 Canadians, 20,000 Afghans killed and and 30,000 Afghans wounded and the "enemy" now in control of half of Afghanistan and negotiating at becoming part of the new government - to be a success, then what do they consider a failure? Our Military does not decides decide on what is a successful or what is a failure, Those conditions are set out by the government and according to our government our military meet or exceeded all of what it was asked to do....Why do you find the need to place the responsibility for the entire mission at the militaries feet.... The entire Military mission expenditure was not 20 bil dollars, That number includes all the humanitarian assistance given, all the construction projects, such as new highways, Dam projects, not to mention all the diplomatic expenditures and programs they created....So ill recap once again, those numbers are for everything that all depts. were responsible for, foreign affairs, RCMP, Diplomatic measures everything.....While I get it it all comes out of the tax payers wallet, but your twisting facts to suit your argument..... Not sure why you continue to use the deaths of 159 soldiers as part of the price Canadians paid or why you use those numbers as if they point towards a failure. Canadians were never asked to contribute to those numbers, like you have said over and over (It was their choice and they were paid for it...) It was the price our soldiers...and one Diplomat paid.....no one else...Not once where Average Canadians Citizens asked to step forward and sign up to fight in a foreign conflict, .......you make it sound like these soldiers were well compensated for their efforts, like they sacrificed everything for money...Had nothing to due with money, but their dedication to their comrads that was the main driving force to get these soldiers to go back not a couple of times as you suggest but rather 3 to 6 times on average....just a couple times more than a couple times..... You talk about an enemy now controlling half of Afghanistan, today now being 2016, and we left in 2012 (4 years after the fact) as I have said before our responsibility for the Afghanistan mission ended in 2012....when the last of the combat troops came home....The military warned of leaving early that the mission was not yet finished, once again our government masters where going to chase where ever the votes were going not what was best for the situation or the nation, but what ever the general population had decided.....So when we left the enemy was not in control of half the Afghanistan.....There returning ( the enemy) is the fault of the absence of NATO Combat troops....which is the direct result of the demands that the general population made....So if you were one of those guys (big guy) that demanded our soldiers return....then that smoking bag of dog shit belongs to you and those involved in that decision....but you are trying to pin that on the mission itself.....how is that possible.. When the Canadian Combat mission was done and could no longer influence current conditions in Afghanistan..... Al Qaeda was not a major influence in Afghanistan when we exited the battle field....How long are you going to continue with blaming todays conditions with our past mission in Afghanistan..... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Big Guy Posted February 27, 2016 Report Posted February 27, 2016 ... Al Qaeda was not a major influence in Afghanistan when we exited the battle field....How long are you going to continue with blaming todays conditions with our past mission in Afghanistan..... I generally do not reply to parsed comments but I already have a lot of time invested in this thread: I believe that to-days conditions are the result of actions of the past. Canadian involvement was a very big part of the actions of the past. We have a volunteer military. I believe that those in the military know exactly what they are getting into and are not any more patriotic or heroic than law enforcement and/or fire fighters. Those who feel that our involvement in Afghanistan is a success would then have to support the same mission and actions in the future. The Lord help us then. I have no intention of convincing you of anything. It appears to me that you are very comfortable with your position and when someone questions my figures and sources without providing their own opposing figures and sources then I lose interest. I have no intention of writing a thesis in my spare time. If you do not accept my figures and sources then provide those which prove them incorrect. Until that time I will stand behind mine. If you feel the mission into Afghanistan was a success then good for you. You must be pleased with what we did and what we left. I do no and I am not. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Army Guy Posted February 28, 2016 Report Posted February 28, 2016 (edited) I generally do not reply to parsed comments but I already have a lot of time invested in this thread: Just for a second, I would like you to put yourself in my boots, Ive been posting on this forum for almost 10 years now, most of my posts have been on this topic. From my side of the fence it does not seem you have put much time or research into your responses. you find any source that confirms your beliefs and post it....and when challenged on these sources you end the conversation or debate with you have your beliefs and I have mine..... Don't get me wrong, It was not always like this, I used to enjoy responding to your posts they were well thought out and you articulated you point very well. Im not sure what changed, but someone once told me you get what you sow.........which might explain my interest or lack of in my replies back you....Ive been slowly trying to change that, im hoping you follow my lead..... I value you opinion, or I would not waste my time in responding, I enjoy doing the research to prove or back up my statements, this you ve helped me get a better grasp on the topics we do happen to discuss....for that I am grateful . But sometimes debating with you can be frustrating and this tends to come out in my posts......for that I offer my apologies... We have a volunteer military. I believe that those in the military know exactly what they are getting into and are not any more patriotic or heroic than law enforcement and/or fire fighters. It was not my intention to suggest anything else.....But you must admit, volunteering to spend upto 8 months at a time, in a war zone is above and beyond, and to do that on multi occasions, is beyond that.... I have no intention of convincing you of anything. It appears to me that you are very comfortable with your position and when someone questions my figures and sources without providing their own opposing figures and sources then I lose interest. I have no intention of writing a thesis in my spare time. If you do not accept my figures and sources then provide those which prove them incorrect. Until that time I will stand behind mine. Your statement is once again confusing, if you have no intention of convincing me of anything. What is your intention of posting the things you do, if it is nothing more than to keep me busy, or to see how I will react please stop....and I will do the same.....As I am very comfortable with my position and my actions over there. I once heard you were a teacher, I hope you do not respond to your students with I have no intention of explaining my sources , it is up to you to do that......until then what ever I say must be true.... Fair enough..... so I did my own research, goggle is a wonderful thing.....your figures are wrong...your numbers inflated..... from day one, until 2014 here are the total figures of Afghan civilians that where killed because of actions of NATO troops 7509 killed they did not keep records for the wounded, but normally it is twice that number......, It should be noted that Accurate numbers of Civilians were not kept by Human rights watch, or UN assistance mission Afghanistan (UNAMA) or Afghan Independent Human rights commission (AIHRC) However I did find for those missing years and used Professor Marc W. Herold of the University of New Hampshire, numbers...for the remaining years I used UNAMA, or AIHRC numbers what ever number was the highest...I also rounded up the list for easier math, the exact numbers of course are available through the link....if you care to do the math.... That 7509 includes all NATO nations, the link also in most cases breaks it down by which nation is reasonable....and Canada while not innocent in taking civilian lives, there numbers might add up to little over 50....of course you can add them up your self it is all in the links.... and while even one life that is lost is tragic, a lot of these can be explained as accidents, misunderstandings on both sides...and not to sound cold, but these things do happen in war.... While you quickly point to the damage we did to the Afghan people, there are no mention on how many lives we saved, yes Afghan civilians were treated regularly in Canadas role 3 hospital, not only from wounds received by Canadian soldiers, but from IEDs, Taliban, other terrorist groups, who killed or wounded on average 75 % of all Afghan civilians, in some years past 85%....of course we do not count those injured in traffic accidents, other accidents that were treated by either Canadian soldiers or Medical staff....How many IEDs our Engineers dismantled in towns, how many classes did we give the kids on how to recognize an IED and who to phone....how many medical staff vists did we make to towns and villagers, to provide medical attention to anyone who needed it.... How many wells did Canadians drill, I know not a big deal, unless you have no clean drinking water, how many Kms of highways did we build, and then the Dam ....not to mention projects that the soldiers paid for out of their own pockets, the purchase of 4 ambulances, a fire truck, the building of schools, providing school supplies, books that list goes on and on.... All those feel good stories are long forgotten, but to say we did not make a difference, a good difference in Afghanistan would be just a lie.....told to discredit all the hard work the men and women did in Afghanistan....And im sorry I can not let that happen. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_in_the_war_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present) Edited February 28, 2016 by Army Guy Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Big Guy Posted February 28, 2016 Report Posted February 28, 2016 Just for a second, I would like you to put yourself in my boots, Ive been posting on this forum for almost 10 years now,...And im sorry I can not let that happen. ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_in_the_war_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present) Thank you for sharing your views. I have said all I am prepared to say and have no more time to spend on this topic. You have done a superb job in explaining your position. I have not changed mine. I will assume that your hard work in research and presentation is effective in having other posters seriously consider your views on this topic. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
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