Argus Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 That isn't true at all. Every non-unionized job I've ever had I was asked how much I wanted, and we negotiated from there. It was only in the union jobs where the salary was non-negotiable. And what, exactly is your profession? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 So basically the main reason is to not contracting out is to preserve good union jobs. I frankly don't care about good public service jobs. They're getting paid with money removed from the public by force. Janitors need to be civil servants because they'll have a good wage and funnel that money back into the economy. Why not have the government just pay everyone a good wage? So you can't find an example, huh? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 A good example would be garbage collection here in Winnipeg. There absolutely were growing pains when it was first contracted out. A private company doing a job that had always been public, it's to be expected that they might not be able to hit the ground running. But the contract reflected that probability, and included penalties for late or missed pickups. That meant that as the private company was ramping up to be able to do the job effectively, the cost to the city got less and less. So much so that, at one point private company was paying the city rather than the city paying it. That gave the private contractor some serious motivation to get more efficient and fix the problems so that they could actually get paid for the job. Now, the collection is like clockwork. It's far more reliable than the city collection ever was. The real bonus is, if the private company balks at what they're offered when the contract is up in 5 years, the city is allowed to see if anyone else will do it for that price. And for every such example you have a counter example, such as Ottawa, where the city wasted millions on a private contractor who could never meet his goals of recycling numbers, and whose equipment didn't work, and who just went into bankruptcy. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 Protection from arbitrary discipline? Increased salary and benefits? I increased my salary and benefits considerably by changing jobs to a non union position. Arbitrary discipline, I couldn't say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 I increased my salary and benefits considerably by changing jobs to a non union position. Arbitrary discipline, I couldn't say. I increased my salary and benefits considerably by changing jobs to a union position. So I guess that's not really an indication of a lot. I increased my protection against arbitrary and unfair shift changes and discipline too. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 (edited) One of the things that used to bug me about being in a union was that both the people who worked and the people who didn't were paid the same if they were they were in the same pay grade. At least now those who don't do the work don't get the pay. And then there are the rules around seniority... Edited May 8, 2015 by bcsapper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 And what, exactly is your profession? I'm in publishing now, but I'm talking about ANY job. Even my 21 yr old kid negotiated his salary and compensation for his current job. It's the norm, not the exception. Unions steal that opportunity from you, and it absolutely should not be legal for them to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 One of the things that used to bug me about being in a union was that both the people who worked and the people who didn't were paid the same if they were they were in the same pay grade. It's worse than that...the loafers will organize and intimidate the more productive workers to slow down and produce less to lower the standard piece rate (in manufacturing) and more importantly, cause overtime hours to be required. Union seniority loves to eat up that overtime ! Quote Economics trumps Virtue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 It's worse than that...the loafers will organize and intimidate the more productive workers to slow down and produce less to lower the standard piece rate (in manufacturing) and more importantly, cause overtime hours to be required. Union seniority loves to eat up that overtime ! That was one of the things that really turned me off of unions: I was cornered once and told in no uncertain terms to slow down. I was getting done by tuesday what was supposed to take at least the whole week, if not longer. And I was NOT trying to work quickly by any stretch. The one that really turned me off of them forever though, was when I was reprimanded for cleaning up my own mess when I spilled a coffee. Not for spilling it, for CLEANING IT UP. That, you see, was another union member's job, and I was "stealing" work from him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 Unions steal that opportunity from you, and it absolutely should not be legal for them to do so. lol Union members make significantly better wages. Union workers make more A Statistics Canada average hourly wage survey released earlier this month found the average year-over-year wage increase among the country’s 15.1 million employees was 3.6 per cent in July. Among the 4.57 million unionized workers, the average wage was $26.83 an hour in July, up 3.0 per cent in the past year. Among the 10.51 million non-union employees, the average wage was $21.79 an hour – up 3.8 per cent year-over-year. So the average hourly wage gap between unionized and non-unionized employees was $5.04 an hour, according to Statistics Canada data. But the Canadian Labour Congress, which says median wage figures are a better indicator of that difference than average wages, says the gap is closer to $7 an hour. http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/non-union-wages-seen-rising-3-2-in-2013-1.1271693 Quote Science flies you to the moon, Religion flies you into buildings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 lol Union members make significantly better wages. http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/non-union-wages-seen-rising-3-2-in-2013-1.1271693 So there's no reason to oppose letting people negotiate their own terms then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 So there's no reason to oppose letting people negotiate their own terms then? Sure they can! Go find a non-Union job, make less money (on average) and negotiate your own terms. Quote Science flies you to the moon, Religion flies you into buildings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 ....The one that really turned me off of them forever though, was when I was reprimanded for cleaning up my own mess when I spilled a coffee. Not for spilling it, for CLEANING IT UP. That, you see, was another union member's job, and I was "stealing" work from him. Yep....a line worker once asked me to help her relocate some very heavy wire pull testing machines on the production floor. I did so only to find out that she grievanced me because a union trade owned that work (millrights). "Nothing personal", she said, "Just part of the collective bargaining unit game." Quote Economics trumps Virtue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 Sure they can! Go find a non-Union job, make less money (on average) and negotiate your own terms. And that attitude is why unions need to be broken. Eventually they will be. Right to work is coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 The Unions in private-sector manufacturing have had to learn quickly that productivity is actually their friend. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/the-weakening-state-of-canadian-labour-unions/article4515873/?page=all There is a concept called win-win which can work for them. Mr. Lewenza argues unions today are being forced by economics and global competitiveness to focus on the same issues of productivity as employers. “If somebody would have said in 1940 or 1950, ‘Is the union concerned with productivity,’ the answer would have been ‘no,’” he says. “That wasn’t our priority ... But today we know that a productive work force is normally rewarded better than a non-productive work force.” Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 One of the things that used to bug me about being in a union was that both the people who worked and the people who didn't were paid the same if they were they were in the same pay grade. I worked a lot of crummy, non-union jobs before going to work with the government. Everyone at the same level got paid the same in every one of them. And then there are the rules around seniority... What rules would that be? Seniority in the public service have no affect on promotion. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 I'm in publishing now, but I'm talking about ANY job. Even my 21 yr old kid negotiated his salary and compensation for his current job. It's the norm, not the exception. No, it very much is NOT the norm, except in skilled professions. For most people they get what the job pays. Period. You're not going to find much salary variance among Wal-Mart cashiers, or assembly line workers, payroll clerks, secretaries, or security, customer service and truck drivers, or janitorial staff, or, for that matter, any job which doesn't get commissions. Why would the company bother to negotiate with you? "This is what the job pays. Don't like it? Fine. There are fifty other guys willing to take it for that." Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 That was one of the things that really turned me off of unions: I was cornered once and told in no uncertain terms to slow down. I was getting done by tuesday what was supposed to take at least the whole week, if not longer. And I was NOT trying to work quickly by any stretch. The one that really turned me off of them forever though, was when I was reprimanded for cleaning up my own mess when I spilled a coffee. Not for spilling it, for CLEANING IT UP. That, you see, was another union member's job, and I was "stealing" work from him. I strongly suspect these union cliche's of yours never actually happened. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 To Michael - I believe that the functions of unions evolved into focussing on protecting the weakest member. Many young people going into a unionized job are disappointed when they perceive that exceptional productivity is not only not rewarded, but challenged by others because of the precedent it sets and the pressure that puts on others doing the same job. Personally, I have found that the ambitious and energetic young adult quickly moves through different jobs within the workplace and is soon a member of management and on salary. A person with an exceptional work ethic, ability to learn and change, prepared to upgrade his/her skills and has some ambition, does not need unions to do well, finds membership to be restrictive and is soon on salary. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 No, it very much is NOT the norm, It absolutely IS the norm for most jobs that you actually want to keep. I strongly suspect these union cliche's of yours never actually happened. They're not cliche's at all. My personal experience with unions is THE reason why I'm against them. I've seen them in action up close, and I'm disgusted with what I saw. This was one MGEU site and one CUPE site. If you haven't experienced it, then you're probably one of the dead weights that the other guys were protecting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 To Michael - I believe that the functions of unions evolved into focussing on protecting the weakest member. Many young people going into a unionized job are disappointed when they perceive that exceptional productivity is not only not rewarded, but challenged by others because of the precedent it sets and the pressure that puts on others doing the same job. Many, huh? As in what, one? Two? You have a list of names? A study? A survey? Anything? Personally, I have found that the ambitious and energetic young adult quickly moves through different jobs within the workplace and is soon a member of management and on salary. Maybe at MacDonalds. Certainly not within the public service, which this topic is allegedly about, unless your definition of "soon" is a number of years. A person with an exceptional work ethic, ability to learn and change, prepared to upgrade his/her skills and has some ambition, does not need unions to do well, finds membership to be restrictive and is soon on salary. I have no idea why you seem to feel people in unions aren't on salary. As for the rest, people need unions to protect them from bad managers and incompetent administrators who screw up their pay and benefits, whether they're 'exceptional' or not, and to negotiate overall salary, benefit and safety policies on behalf of all employees. Workplaces without unions tend to have lower salaries, little or no sick leave, and draconian punishments, up to and including firings, for even inadvertent errors. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 It absolutely IS the norm for most jobs that you actually want to keep. It might surprise you that lots of people have jobs they don't like, but need. Besides which large institutions centralize pay and benefits. They're not going to a hundred employees doing the same job a hundred different salaries and a hundred differe3nt types of benefits. It's too much damned hassle. They're not cliche's at all. They are actually the two most cited cliche's from the anti-union types. My personal experience with unions is THE reason why I'm against them. And my personal experience with a variety of non-union jobs is why I'm in favour of unions. If you haven't experienced it, then you're probably one of the dead weights that the other guys were protecting. Or I don't have your imagination. It's bulls**t that those cliche's are at all widespread. It's also crap that someone comes in new to a unit, unless it's a bottom feeder job which requires almost no training, and knows anywhere near enough to wildly outdo those already in the same job within a short time frame. Most of the government jobs I have experience with are far too complicated for any newcomers to do much of anything without a lot of training, reading, and hand-holding. The exception would have been data entry, where everyone tried to work faster because there were pay increments based on how fast you were. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 11, 2015 Report Share Posted May 11, 2015 I worked a lot of crummy, non-union jobs before going to work with the government. Everyone at the same level got paid the same in every one of them. What rules would that be? Seniority in the public service have no affect on promotion. I have no idea what the other people at my level are paid. I know I am paid what I'm worth, so I assume others are. The rules would be those around bumping during layoffs. Among others. I do remember some openings and courses being given based on seniority, regardless of how long the person has left, but don't ask for a definite on that, it's lost in the mists of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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