Why are so few willing to discuss real historical events?

[Je suis Omar]

Why, Jesus...we have already answered your OP question. America has already given you all the reasons, and the means to find them.

So be it, George. At least we have the central issue settled. The US is not to be trusted in anything they say or do. The world is just a Nazis running wild theme park.

It kind of makes all the talk of appeasing this or that dictator little more than puffery.

[bush_cheney2004]

So be it, George. At least we have the central issue settled. The US is not to be trusted in anything they say or do. The world is just a Nazis running wild theme park.

...and Canada's biggest trading partner.

Close the border and teach those damn 'merkins a lesson 'bout "human rights" and "war-crimes".

[Je suis Omar]

...or Canada in Somalia, Haiti, and Afghanistan. See...everybody is still doing it !

Agreed, under the auspices of Número Uno war criminal. Canada is like an Al Capone underling.

Could you confirm for those who don't know just who is the Número Uno war criminal nation?

[bush_cheney2004]

...Could you confirm for those who don't know just who is the Número Uno war criminal nation?

Based on actual war criminal indictments and convictions, probably some poor sucker nation in Africa which bears the brunt

of racist ICC and UN investigations.

[TimG]

There are plenty of examples from today. We have the war crimes committed by the USA invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan.

A perfect example of throwing the 'war crimes' label around causes harm because it blurs the distinctions between different events. In this case moral/social context for the Afghanistan war was radically different from the moral/social context for the Iraq war yet you present them as some how equal.

It is nonsensical perspective that only makes sense if I assume you are really a narcissist on ego trip who makes yourself feel better by accusing others of crimes.

Get back to us once you learn to understand nuance and that context matters when assessing historical events.

Edited April 2, 2015 by TimG

[Je suis Omar]

A perfect example of throwing the 'war crimes' label around causes harm because it blurs the distinctions between different events. In this case moral/social context for the Afghanistan war was radically different from the moral/social context for the Iraq war yet you present them as some how equal.

.

My contention is that they are equal. Please explain how they are not.

[bush_cheney2004]

My contention is that they are equal. Please explain how they are not.

I like that...such twisted thinking making all such conflicts equal just makes the very term "war crime" irrelevant.

Bombs away !!

[eyeball]

I have lost much of my idealism of my youth.

Idealism still feels like the appropriate path to be on but you're not the only one who wonders if they're just wasting their time.

So, as one gets older and their heart gives way to the brain, is the sense that you shouldn't give a God-damn about anything but yourself normal? Investing all my idealism in the state and regime running it ain't going to happen until Hell freezes over so I wonder if my heart is still calling the shots?

Edited April 2, 2015 by eyeball

[bush_cheney2004]

....So, as one gets older and their heart gives way to the brain, is the sense that you shouldn't give a God-damn about anything but yourself normal?

Yes, depending on your bank account balance.

[carepov]

Sure it was an error. People make errors during wars. People die from errors. But intent matters and that is why there is a difference between an accident, criminal negligence, murder 2 and murder 1. The American officials who authorized the second bomb may have made an error but they believed it was necessary to end the war.

Rounding people up and executing them in gas chambers. That was no error. It was a war crime.

Now if you had conclusive proof that the people who authorized the second bombing were perfectly aware that it was not necessary and they just wanted to test their new war toy then that would be a war crime. However, such proof does not exist and given the context of a bloody war I think they should be given the benefit of the doubt.

While I reject Omar Chomsky's notions that the US led West is the most evil empire ever, you must admit we did some evil ***, including terrorizing civilian populations.

Military and political leaders - no matter what their nationality - do not rise to the top through honesty. You give these leaders the "benefit of the doubt"? Now that's what I call naive!

Edited April 2, 2015 by Michael Hardner
profanity

[carepov]

No...it was not an error. It was a well contemplated, debated, and examined decision made with clear conscience and purpose.

The U.S. (and other nations) have the means and will to do it again if circumstances require.

Make no mistake about that.

In your opinion, has the US Government made any errors?

[bush_cheney2004]

In your opinion, has the US Government made any errors?

Of course it has made errors...but not in this instance. It is revisionist history to say otherwise.

[carepov]

Admittedly, there are other contenders. But the Oscar has to go to the Americans who have actually been able to fool way more people than any others you mentioned, Carepov.

You are right, you could write volumes to describe the evils of any empire, including the American.

However, you could also write volumes about American led positive deeds. In many cases, American actions were unprecedentedly good.

-For example, how many empires would rebuild a country like Japan, hand power back so quickly, and allow them to become the #2 economic power?

-As I mentioned, the very lens by which we are judging the West (International Law, UDHR, the UN itself...) would not exist without US leadership.

-The openness and tolerance of the US Government to criticism (internal and external) is also IMO unprecedented.

Edited April 2, 2015 by carepov

[carepov]

Of course it has made errors...but not in this instance. It is revisionist history to say otherwise.

Agree to disagree...

Was the war in Vietnam an error?

Was the Iraq invasion of 2003 an error?

Edited April 2, 2015 by carepov

[bush_cheney2004]

Had nothing to do with being "good"...the U.S. rebuilt Europe and Japan to fight commies.

[carepov]

Had nothing to do with being "good"...the U.S. rebuilt Europe and Japan to fight commies.

Perhaps. My main point is that the US has shown unprecedented restraint in exercising its power.

[bush_cheney2004]

Agree to disagree...

Was the war in Vietnam an error?

Was the Iraq invasion of 2013 an error?

The Vietnam War was the continuation of policies for all of Indo-China and Southeast Asia after the collapse of the French. Several allies joined in the effort (South Korea, Australia, New Zealand, etc.). Not an error...

Iraq was invaded in 2003, not 2013, but this too was the continuation of US/UK policy for the containment and destruction of Saddam's regime. Not an error...Australia concurred.

Edited April 2, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

[Je suis Omar]

Focus, George. Not "all". Two.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Je suis Omar

[bush_cheney2004]

Perhaps. My main point is that the US has shown unprecedented restraint in exercising its power.

Depends on who is getting bombed....terrorists / ISIS are the new commies.

"Speak softly, and carry a big stick" - Teddy Roosevelt

Edited April 2, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

[On Guard for Thee]

The Vietnam War was the continuation of policies for all of Indo-China and Southeast Asia after the collapse of the French. Several allies joined in the effort (South Korea, Australia, New Zealand, etc.). Not an error...

Iraq was invaded in 2003, not 2013, but this too was the continuation of US/UK policy for the containment and destruction of Saddam's regime. Not an error...

Not only was Iraq a huge error, as is evidenced by the chaos up to and actually eve including today, but it was also illegal.

[carepov]

The Vietnam War was the continuation of policies for all of Indo-China and Southeast Asia after the collapse of the French. Several allies joined in the effort (South Korea, Australia, New Zealand, etc.). Not an error...

Iraq was invaded in 2003, not 2013, but this too was the continuation of US/UK policy for the containment and destruction of Saddam's regime. Not an error...

So if you could go back, you would do it all over again?

[bush_cheney2004]

So if you could go back, you would do it all over again?

Do what all over again ? It wasn't my decision, but it was my sworn duty.

[TimG]

While I reject Omar Chomsky's notions that the US led West is the most evil empire ever, you must admit we did some evil ****, including terrorizing civilian populations.

Yes. But as they say about democracy: it is worst system ever designed except for all others. The US only looks good if you compare it to other regimes over time. If you try hold it some absolute (and unachievable) standard of morality the US will come up lacking. Doing such historical reviews can be a useful exercise as long as context and nuance are not forgotten. i.e. we can agree that certain events were wrong and should not have happened but as soon as you start trying to attach the "war crime" label to every mistake you turn a rational discussion of history into an ideological shouting match.

Military and political leaders - no matter what their nationality - do not rise to the top through honesty. You give these leaders the "benefit of the doubt"? Now that's what I call naive!

Innocent until proven guilty is the standard used by all who care about justice (a.k.a the benefit of doubt). You don't get to change the rules because you don't like the people you are accusing of crimes. Edited April 2, 2015 by TimG

[carepov]

Do what all over again ? It wasn't my decision, but it was my sworn duty.

Hypotheticaly, the CIC turns to you for advice on the eve of these wars, what advice would you give?

[bush_cheney2004]

Hypotheticaly, the CIC turns to you for advice on the eve of these wars, what advice would you give?

Huh ? Seek such wisdom from Justin Trudeau...then break everything. Like Sherman's march to the sea.....