Why are so few willing to discuss real historical events?

Je suis Omar · April 6, 2015

How does this relate to your personal attack in violation of forum rules ?

I didn't attack you, personally or otherwise, George.

You have stated, more than once, that you support, completely and unequivocally, the USA, a country that has bested (kinda ironic that 'bested' can be used to describe such an agglomeration of evil) both Stalin's and Nazi Germany's record for slaughtering innocents.

The only difference is that the USA has been much sneakier about their evil, and they have covered their tracks better with the world's most successful propaganda system.

Argus · April 6, 2015

That illustrates that you are true comrades of those who support the worst of what Stalin and Hitler have done. You are saying that you are the equivalent of those who participated in Nazi concentration and death camps.

I'm still waiting for you to explain the 'Je suis omar' name you've chosen and how that is unrelated to the 'je suis omar' meme used to support the terrorist Omar El Hussein.

GostHacked · April 6, 2015

How does this relate to your personal attack in violation of forum rules ?

Because, 'Canada'.

bush_cheney2004 · April 6, 2015

I didn't attack you, personally or otherwise, George.

I did not state this, you did...quote: "You are saying that you are the equivalent of those who participated in Nazi concentration and death camps."

The U.S. (and Canada for that matter), had internment and POW camps, not "NAZI concentration and death camps".

I have not participated in any such camps or the "equivalent".

Je suis Omar · April 6, 2015

I'm still waiting for you to explain the 'Je suis omar' name you've chosen and how that is unrelated to the 'je suis omar' meme used to support the terrorist Omar El Hussein.

Another example of a garwshucks, tea party, love 'er or leave 'er crowd meme.

Je suis Omar · April 6, 2015

I did not state this, you did...quote: "You are saying that you are the equivalent of those who participated in Nazi concentration and death camps."

Omar: You have to be able to comprehend the written language to understand exactly what I did say, which is not what you have suggested.

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I have not participated in any such camps or the "equivalent".

Omar: If you say so, George.

Say, aren't you the guy/girl who advanced that fiction about fire collapsing steel framed high rises?

B_C2004: The U.S. (and Canada for that matter), had internment and POW camps, not "NAZI concentration and death camps".

Just one example, below, of this central theme that runs thru America's numerous illegal invasions since WWII, death squads. But USA death squads are not just post WWII. They are a central theme of American history.

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http://www.alternet.org/world/americas-hired-death-squads-and-torture-teams-are-still-operating-iraq

Death squads, torture, secret prisons in Iraq, and General David Petraeus are among the featured atrocities in a recently-released new British documentary James Steele: Americas Mystery Man in Iraq the result of a 15-month investigation by Guardian Films and BBC Arabic, exploring war crimes long denied by the Pentagon but confirmed by thousands of military field reports made public by Wikileaks.

The hour-long film explores the arc of American counterinsurgency brutality from Viet-Nam to Iraq, with stops along the way in El Salvador and Nicaragua. James Steele is now a retired U.S. colonel who first served in Viet-Nam as a company commander in 1968-69. He later made his reputation as a military advisor in El Salvador, where he guided ruthless Salvadoran death squads in the 1980s.

When his country called again in 2003, he came out of retirement to train Iraqi police commandos in the bloodiest techniques of counterinsurgency that evolved into that countrys Shia-Sunni civil war that at its peak killed 3,000 people a month. Steele now lives in a gated golf community in Brian, Texas, and did not respond to requests for an interview for the documentary bearing his name.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Je suis Omar

bush_cheney2004 · April 6, 2015

Just one example, below, of this central theme that runs thru America's numerous illegal invasions since WWII, death squads. But USA death squads are not just post WWII. They are a central theme of American history.

What's so special about WWII ? This is a common refrain from America bashers posting from their now fallen empire.

Je suis Omar · April 6, 2015

What's so special about WWII ? This is a common refrain from America bashers posting from their now fallen empire.

It's not at all difficult to see where you are coming from, George. It's either your fictions or your lame attempts at diverting from the issues under discussion.

Je suis Omar · April 6, 2015

What's so special about WWII ?

It provides a demarcation point which provides a good comparison for all that the USA is - Nazi Germany with a much much longer run.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Je suis Omar

bush_cheney2004 · April 6, 2015

It's not at all difficult to see where you are coming from, George. It's either your fictions or your lame attempts at diverting from the issues under discussion.

OK, Jesus...it is clear which history you do not wish to discuss. God Save the Queen....

Je suis Omar · April 7, 2015

OK, Jesus...it is clear which history you do not wish to discuss. God Save the Queen....

You want to discuss the UK's war crimes and terrorism, go right ahead. I'll help you.

The UK's crimes are inextricably tied up to those of the USA. But the UK is like a minor player in a major Mafia group. The USA is the John Gotti, the Whitey Bulger, the Al Capone.

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Diego Garcia Military Base

As the British Empire collapsed, USA expanded into parts of it. When the USA-UK decided in the 1960s to install a massive military base on one of the Indian Ocean Islands making up Mauritius, that is to say, on the Island of Diego Garcia, in order to implement this decision, they committed a number of crimes.

The UK-US Crimes

The British Government had, firstly, to steal the Chagos Islands, including Diego Garcia, from the totality of the islands making up the State of Mauritius. This was in the run-up to Mauritian Independence which was in 1968. They did this behind the back of the British Parliament, resorting to an archaic Royal Prerogative, an Order in Council. This was Harold Wilsons Labour Government. He contravened UN Resolution 1514 which states clearly that Any attempt at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the UN. Furthermore, UN member states who had got wind of the plot to dismember Mauritius had actually voted resolution 2066 calling on Britain to take no action that would dismember territory of Mauritius and violate its territorial integrity. UN resolution 2066 prohibited this land-grab.

Once Britain had stolen the Islands and concocted a new colony called British Indian Ocean Territories or BIOT (which included some stolen Seychelles Islands that the Seychelles government, importantly, claimed afterwards when Albert Rene came to power, and got), Britain, together with the USA, proceeded with the second crime.

They forcibly removed the entire population of Chagossian Mauritians living there.

They hounded them off their homes by trickery, intimidation, threats, terror and finally brute violence. The Chagossian dogs were rounded up and killed before their eyes, and before the eyes of their children. The US-UK invented a blatant lie to the effect that nobody lived there. And they knew it was a blatant lie. All this has been documented in detail, especially since the late 1990s when the 30 years of the Official SecretsAct ran out and proof was available by the ream proof of the forcible removals, the conspiracy involved, of the conscious invention of lies, together with the racist comments that are concomitant to such violence. In the judgement in 2000 of Chagossian leader Olivier Bancoults case against the British State, the British Supreme Court deplores the conspiracy. They even quote a civil servants note saying Unfortunately, along with the Birds go some few Tarzans or Man Fridays whose origins are obscure, and who are being hopefully wished on to Mauritius.

Thirdly, the USA, the receiver of the stolen Islands, proceeded to pour concrete and tarmac on to the most beautiful coral reef in the world, a horse-shoe shaped pair of islands, called Diego Garcia. They destroyed the entire eco-system. Now there are undersea re-inforced concrete bunkers, barracks for thousands of armed forces, clubs for the different ranks present at the Base: the high ranks of top brass, the next highest for officers, then for the ranks of ordinary soldiers and sailors, and finally the lowest of mainly manual workers up to the level of nurses, who come from mainly the Philippines and Mauritius. There is also a huge runway from which B-52s thundered off to bomb Afganistan and Iraq. There is a filthy harbour where air-craft carriers dock. The vessel responsible for servicing nuclear submarines expelled from Italy after demonstrations, is now stationed there. This is in contravention of the Treaty for a Nuclear Arms Free Africa, the Pelindaba Treaty, which came into force in 2010.

...

http://www.wri-irg.org/es/node/14999

bush_cheney2004 · April 7, 2015

You want to discuss the UK's war crimes and terrorism, go right ahead. I'll help you.

The UK's crimes are inextricably tied up to those of the USA. But the UK is like a minor player in a major Mafia group. The USA is the John Gotti, the Whitey Bulger, the Al Capone.

Diego Garcia ? Is that all you have for the UK (aka British Empire) ?

You are not much help at all, ignoring a much longer British (or French, Spanish, German, Dutch, Portuguese, etc.) colonial history....real historical events.

Edited April 7, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

Je suis Omar · April 7, 2015

Diego Garcia ? Is that all you have for the UK (aka British Empire) ?

You are not much help at all, ignoring a much longer British (or French, Spanish, German, Dutch, Portuguese, etc.) colonial history....real historical events.

Your repeated attempts at diversion are really juvenile. You want to discuss ancient history. Talk about dishonesty! The Germans of WWII didn't raise this silly notion as a defence.

No, that's not all there is. The historical record is replete with examples showing the USA was born of terrorism and it has continued that for well over 200 years right up to today.

We're talking about massive war crimes committed by the USA since WWII. The same USA that has done nothing but lie for over two centuries about how it is the saviour of the oppressed. The USA only does oppression, but the "land of the brave" is careful to prey on the powerless, the poor of the world.

How sick is that?!

Edited April 7, 2015 by Je suis Omar

bush_cheney2004 · April 7, 2015

Your repeated attempts at diversion are really juvenile. You want to discuss ancient history. Talk about dishonesty! The Germans of WWII didn't raise this silly notion as a defence.

What defense ? None is needed or required, but apparently more history lessons are in order for the U.S. obsessed.

We're talking about recent massive war crimes committed by the USA. The same USA that has done nothing but lie for over two centuries about how it is the saviour of the oppressed. The USA only does oppression, but the "land of the brave" is careful to prey on the powerless, the poor of the world.

...and the "poor of the world" have voted with their feet for the U.S., more than any other nation in the world. Still do....

Edited April 7, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

Je suis Omar · April 7, 2015

What defense ? None is needed or required, but apparently more history lessons are in order for the U.S. obsessed.

Omar: History lessons. Not from you, George. Apologists for war criminals and terrorists are not to be trusted. And you have stated more than once that you overwhelmingly support USA war crimes and terrorism.

...and the "poor of the world" have voted with their feet for the U.S., more than any other nation in the world. Still do....

There are many who are attracted to shiny lights and baubles. People who are looking to escape the evil conditions created by the USA over a wide swath of the world would accept pretty much anything.

Argus · April 7, 2015

There are many who are attracted to shiny lights and baubles. People who are looking to escape the evil conditions created by the USA over a wide swath of the world would accept pretty much anything.

Would they accept terrorism? Are you a supporter of Muslim terrorism, Omar?

bush_cheney2004 · April 7, 2015

There are many who are attracted to shiny lights and baubles. People who are looking to escape the evil conditions created by the USA over a wide swath of the world would accept pretty much anything.

Yes...especially those evil conditions created in Europe, Asia, Africa....and the Americas. How could the entire world be controlled and influenced by a single nation ? The secret must be...thermite !

GostHacked · April 7, 2015

Would they accept terrorism? Are you a supporter of Muslim terrorism, Omar?

Only terrorism done in our name. But then that could be called nation building... with bombs.

Argus · April 7, 2015

Only terrorism done in our name. But then that could be called nation building... with bombs.

Motivation is at the heart of all judgement with regard to behaviour. That's why a guy who kills someone accidentally is not in prison, or why a guy who killed someone accidentally, but really due to massive stupidity is. Meanwhile, a guy who killed someone on purpose, goes to jail for much longer.

Motivation.

Which is why accidentally killing people when doing something acceptable, like trying to kill terrorists, is not nearly as bad as deliberately sending a mentally impaired individual into a market with a vest stuffed with explosives, say.

What you are calling 'terrorism in our name' is "mostly" things which didn't work out as planned, or which you are going back in time and trying to denounce without regard to the complexities or context of the times.

GostHacked · April 7, 2015

Motivation is at the heart of all judgement with regard to behaviour. That's why a guy who kills someone accidentally is not in prison, or why a guy who killed someone accidentally, but really due to massive stupidity is. Meanwhile, a guy who killed someone on purpose, goes to jail for much longer.

Motivation.

Which is why accidentally killing people when doing something acceptable, like trying to kill terrorists, is not nearly as bad as deliberately sending a mentally impaired individual into a market with a vest stuffed with explosives, say.

What you are calling 'terrorism in our name' is "mostly" things which didn't work out as planned, or which you are going back in time and trying to denounce without regard to the complexities or context of the times.

In terms of the 2003 invasion of Iraq, I've been an opponent of that war right from the start. And that is also evident with my posting here since 2005. My position has not changed one bit. I was starting to understand the complexities then, now I get it even more so.

Argus · April 7, 2015

In terms of the 2003 invasion of Iraq, I've been an opponent of that war right from the start. And that is also evident with my posting here since 2005. My position has not changed one bit. I was starting to understand the complexities then, now I get it even more so.

And it is complex and it's even more complex if you try to compare it to past events or to legal precedents. The US and allied invasion of Iraq was not a terrorist act. And, in fact, if things had gone as planned, if the people of Iraq had behaved like, say, the people of France or Germany would have, the US would have set up a democracy and been gone within a few years with no further violence. Almost all the violence which has occurred in Iraq since then is due to internecine violence between Shias and Suunis, or by Al Qaeda inspired violence against the US.

On Guard for Thee · April 7, 2015

Motivation is at the heart of all judgement with regard to behaviour. That's why a guy who kills someone accidentally is not in prison, or why a guy who killed someone accidentally, but really due to massive stupidity is. Meanwhile, a guy who killed someone on purpose, goes to jail for much longer.

Motivation.

Which is why accidentally killing people when doing something acceptable, like trying to kill terrorists, is not nearly as bad as deliberately sending a mentally impaired individual into a market with a vest stuffed with explosives, say.

What you are calling 'terrorism in our name' is "mostly" things which didn't work out as planned, or which you are going back in time and trying to denounce without regard to the complexities or context of the times.

The US invasion of Iraq was an illegal act, and dropping bombs is kind of like killing people intentionally, so under your own description, Bush and Cheney etal should be in jail for a long time. The violence they left i their wake was because they didnt understand the structure of the country to begin with. You ust have heard the old adage about ya broke it ya bought it.

bush_cheney2004 · April 7, 2015

And it is complex and it's even more complex if you try to compare it to past events or to legal precedents.

True, the invasion of Iraq in 2003 was preceded by twelve years of sanctions, bombings...bombings, sanctions....clandestine ops with the Kurds, UNSCOM/IAEA inspector circle jerking, and violations of Gulf War surrender instruments.

I guess some people are fine with cruise missile and strike fighter attacks, but "no boots on the ground", 'cause that would be illegal !!

Argus · April 7, 2015

The US invasion of Iraq was an illegal act, and dropping bombs is kind of like killing people intentionally, so under your own description, Bush and Cheney etal should be in jail for a long time. The violence they left i their wake was because they didnt understand the structure of the country to begin with. You ust have heard the old adage about ya broke it ya bought it.

War means dropping bombs. War means killing people. But terrorism and war crimes are rather specific, and generally fall outside the bounds of simply killing the enemy.

Cheney and Rumsfeld were probably the most responsible for screwing things up over there. You could probably even make the case that Rumsfelds actions were stupid enough (he had to fire several generals who tried to point out how stupid) that a charge of criminal negligence would be supported, if there was such a law on the international scale.

But that's still not terrorism.

On Guard for Thee · April 8, 2015

War means dropping bombs. War means killing people. But terrorism and war crimes are rather specific, and generally fall outside the bounds of simply killing the enemy.

Cheney and Rumsfeld were probably the most responsible for screwing things up over there. You could probably even make the case that Rumsfelds actions were stupid enough (he had to fire several generals who tried to point out how stupid) that a charge of criminal negligence would be supported, if there was such a law on the international scale.

But that's still not terrorism.

Why, because it wasnt the Muslims wearing Niqabs you seem to be so freaked out about...Actually it was those people who were being killed, illegally, according to international law. Iraq posed no threat to the US and Bush Cheney knew it.