.

[Big Guy]

Allowing this is going back wards not forward.

Why? What do you consider going forwards and backwards - examples please.

[Canada_First]

Over 75%:of Canadians and 90% of Quebecers want the niqab banned. It's going to get banned one way or another.

[eyeball]

Just wait until this sentiment is leveraged by the state to outlaw people taking measures to make themselves less visible to it's persistent surveillance. If you have something to hide, it probably means you're not with us which can only mean one thing.

[Black Dog]

There is no reason for it, nothing in the Koran that says they have to wear it.

Irrelevant.

Our laws are being tested to see how far the laws can be pushed. Here we have one women complaining and the left want to change our laws to accommodate her, one person.

A stunningly inaccurate version of events. Like, the literal opposite of what happened.

But 82% of Canadians are behind harper on this one and 92% of Quebec.

Even if it is the case, so what? There's a reason we have a system that includes protections for minority rights.

Harper is the only leader willing to stand up against this attack on our values and way of life and culture. What is next, her wearing a face covering when she gets a drivers lic. We cant even smile when we get ours taken. It seems people on the left have no respect for this country and that is just sickening.

SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Black Dog

[BC_chick]

There are others who will rationalize and interpret the issue to their personal agenda. Feminists tend to see the niqab as a male idea to influence the woman to wear one and therefore are against the wearing. Other women feel that in the West, women have the right to wear what they want and banning the wearing of the niqab is restricting their right to choose.

It's a bit of this for me. It's the jealous controlling boyfriend attitude of 'don't look at my girlfriend' and I have a problem with that.

The fact that many Muslim women choose this attire doesn't make much of a difference to me because the fact that they've been socialized to accept misogyny doesn't make the misogyny ok.

Having said that, it hurts nobody so I get that my argument is purely emotional and I agree with Mulcair that Harper is using this as a wedge issue. It's similar to the way GWB used SSM during the Iraq war and unfortunately, for both of them it worked.

Edited September 25, 2015 by BC_chick

[Black Dog]

Thing is, even if you believe (as I do) that the niqab is a symbol of oppression, how on earth does banning it help anyone? All you're doing is attacking the symptom, not the disease.

[Evening Star]

Thing is, even if you believe (as I do) that the niqab is a symbol of oppression, how on earth does banning it help anyone? All you're doing is attacking the symptom, not the disease.

Especially if it's only being banned during one particular ceremony.

[BC_chick]

Evening Star, I think the strategy is to start with the ceremonies and then move toward complete banning.

Black Dog, when a partner (usually woman) is domestically abused, police arrest the man whether or not the woman wants to press charges. Banning the niqab is the same idea, it indicates that whether or not a woman wants to put up with abuse, we as a society do not tolerate it.

It's not going to make the issue go away any more than arresting domestic abusers solves the problem of domestic abuse, however, it brings the issue to light that it's not ok.

Allowing it to go on maintains the status quo that it's just a cultural thing when it's not. It's misogynistic and unacceptable in an egalitarian society.

[Black Dog]

Black Dog, when a partner (usually woman) is domestically abused, police arrest the man whether or not the woman wants to press charges. Banning the niqab is the same idea, it indicates that whether or not a woman wants to put up with abuse, we as a society do not tolerate it.

Bad analogy. In this case, the sanction falls upon the victim, not the perpetrator.

It's not going to make the issue go away any more than arresting domestic abusers solves the problem of domestic abuse, however, it brings the issue to light that it's not ok.

In cases where women are being forced to wear them, you're basically telling the people forcing them that the women need to be kept at home. And for women who choose to wear them, you're telling them you know better than they do. If you don't like women wearing the niqab, don't wear one.

[BC_chick]

BD, There is no requirement in Islam for women to cover themselves in a sack and not be able to see properly in public, or eat, or have their facial features recognized so the whole thing is abusive and misogynistic (and oppressive as you stated earlier).

As I said earlier, the fact that some women are brainwashed into thinking this is for their own good does not make it ok.

So, yeah, I do know better and so do you evidently by your earlier comment. We shouldn't respect this kind of cultural misogyny anymore than we should FGM.

Do you give a crap if the woman who doesn't get FGM is deemed unmarriable in some cultures? Why do you give a crap what Muslim men and women think about a woman who doesn't cover her face in public?

[Bryan]

SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE.

You do know that slippery slopes are a real thing right? It's only a fallacy if the things that are said to follow are incongruous. Head coverings for ID pictures is already starting to happen in other jurisdictions, so not only is it not a fallacy, it's a very real concern.

[Evening Star]

BD, There is no requirement in Islam for women to cover themselves in a sack and not be able to see properly in public, or eat, or have their facial features recognized so the whole thing is abusive and misogynistic (and oppressive as you stated earlier).

As I said earlier, the fact that some women are brainwashed into thinking this is for their own good does not make it ok.

So, yeah, I do know better and so do you evidently by your earlier comment. We shouldn't respect this kind of cultural misogyny anymore than we should FGM.

Do you give a crap if the woman who doesn't get FGM is deemed unmarriable in some cultures? Why do you give a crap what Muslim men and women think about a woman who doesn't cover her face in public?

Well, FGM actually involves irreparable physical violence to a person's body while this is a type of clothing.

[cybercoma]

There is no reason for it

Let's be honest, you don't much care if there is a reason for it. You don't want to hear it and you wouldn't sit to listen to a Muslim woman tell you why she wears it anyway.

[BC_chick]

Well, FGM actually involves irreparable physical violence to a person's body while this is a type of clothing.

Sure but both are abusive, needless and completely misogynistic superstitions.

[jazzer]

Over 75%:of Canadians and 90% of Quebecers want the niqab banned. It's going to get banned one way or another.

At one time a majority of folks thought slavery was okay and wanted to keep gays in the closet too.

Edited September 25, 2015 by jazzer

[Black Dog]

BD, There is no requirement in Islam for women to cover themselves in a sack and not be able to see properly in public, or eat, or have their facial features recognized so the whole thing is abusive and misogynistic (and oppressive as you stated earlier).

And this is completely irrelevant.

As I said earlier, the fact that some women are brainwashed into thinking this is for their own good does not make it ok.

How paternalistic.

So, yeah, I do know better and so do you evidently by your earlier comment. We shouldn't respect this kind of cultural misogyny anymore than we should FGM.

You don't have to respect it. But you don't get to outlaw it either.

Do you give a crap if the woman who doesn't get FGM is deemed unmarriable in some cultures? Why do you give a crap what Muslim men and women think about a woman who doesn't cover her face in public?

I don't give a crap what they think anymore than they should give a crap what I think.

[Black Dog]

You do know that slippery slopes are a real thing right? It's only a fallacy if the things that are said to follow are incongruous. Head coverings for ID pictures is already starting to happen in other jurisdictions, so not only is it not a fallacy, it's a very real concern.

Link?

[cybercoma]

The fact that many Muslim women choose this attire doesn't make much of a difference to me because the fact that they've been socialized to accept misogyny doesn't make the misogyny ok.

Banning the niqab at citizenship ceremonies doesn't fight misogyny. It contributes to misogyny by doing the exact same thing, that is telling a woman what she can or cannot wear. More importantly, how does banning the niqab at a single ceremony for 1 hour on one single day in a woman's life going to stop misogyny? It's not. Banning the niqab at these ceremonies is window dressing and it's thinly veiled (no pun intended) bigotry. It's only to send a message to Muslims who follow these practices that "we don't want your kind here." The veil of fighting misogyny is so thin, in fact, that the government couldn't even be bothered to pass a law to ban the niqab. It was a policy statement that contradicted the existing laws that require judges to allow the greatest amount of religious freedom possible at these ceremonies. If they really wanted to ban the niqab, they would have created a law banning it everywhere and for always.

But they can't. Because people have the right to observe their faith in any manner they choose, so long as it doesn't violate the rights of others. If a woman chooses to cover her face as a sign of modesty before God, then that's her prerogative and it's protected by the Charter.

[cybercoma]

Thing is, even if you believe (as I do) that the niqab is a symbol of oppression, how on earth does banning it help anyone? All you're doing is attacking the symptom, not the disease.

It's like fighting domestic violence by telling women they're not allowed to get slapped around.

[cybercoma]

BD, There is no requirement in Islam for women to cover themselves in a sack and not be able to see properly in public, or eat, or have their facial features recognized

You're conflating the burqa and the niqab.

[BC_chick]

Banning the niqab at citizenship ceremonies doesn't fight misogyny. It contributes to misogyny by doing the exact same thing, that is telling a woman what she can or cannot wear. More importantly, how does banning the niqab at a single ceremony for 1 hour on one single day in a woman's life going to stop misogyny? It's not. Banning the niqab at these ceremonies is window dressing and it's thinly veiled (no pun intended) bigotry. It's only to send a message to Muslims who follow these practices that "we don't want your kind here." The veil of fighting misogyny is so thin, in fact, that the government couldn't even be bothered to pass a law to ban the niqab. It was a policy statement that contradicted the existing laws that require judges to allow the greatest amount of religious freedom possible at these ceremonies. If they really wanted to ban the niqab, they would have created a law banning it everywhere and for always.

But they can't. Because people have the right to observe their faith in any manner they choose, so long as it doesn't violate the rights of others. If a woman chooses to cover her face as a sign of modesty before God, then that's her prerogative and it's protected by the Charter.

I agree, banning it in one ceremony is ridiculous, it should be banned completely. I've stated my reasons for it, it's not a religious issue because Islam does not require it. It's abusive for the women who wear it and we should not be ok with it for 'cultural sensitivity'.

I do agree though that many of the people who want to ban it are doing it for the wrong reasons. My initial post was to Big Guy where he listed the various types of people who want the niqab banned (ie bigotry, feminist etc) and I said I was one of the ones who do so from a feminist perspective. For many other, you're right, it's just because they don't like Muslims.

[cybercoma]

How paternalistic.

This is what Muslim feminists talk about when they point out Western privilege in feminism. Some feminists talk about fighting the patriarchy, but then turn around and try to impose their ethnocentric attitudes on Muslim women. This is why intersectionality is so important. They fight one form of oppression while propping up another.

[BC_chick]

You're conflating the burqa and the niqab.

2 out of 3 things I stated go for both niqab and burqa. The women who wear niqab still can't eat properly in public or have their facial features recognized.

[Argus]

At one time a majority of folks thought slavery was okay and wanted to keep gays in the closet too.

Ironically, every woman who wears the niqab and every male she bows to also believes this.

Well, okay, they don't want to keep gays in the closet so much as under the ground.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Argus

[Argus]

I do agree though that many of the people who want to ban it are doing it for the wrong reasons. My initial post was to Big Guy where he listed the various types of people who want the niqab banned (ie bigotry, feminist etc) and I said I was one of the ones who do so from a feminist perspective. For many other, you're right, it's just because they don't like Muslims.

Yes, well, and a lot of people who don't like Muslims don't like them because so many embrace the very notions you are attacking, along with many other such retrograde, socially backward values.