Smallc Posted March 17, 2015 Report Posted March 17, 2015 He claimed it is a fact that the niqab represents the oppression of women. That's an opinion. In what world? Quote
Guest Posted March 17, 2015 Report Posted March 17, 2015 You need to learn the difference between a fact and an opinion. We have accounts of women who wear the niqab. They've explained what it represents to them, what the meaning is behind it. You interpret it as oppression and in some cases it absolutely is, like in societies where women are forced against their will to wear them. However, those who feel empowered by it and choose to wear it as a representation of their faith and identity are not being oppressed by it. They're oppressed by being forced against their will to take it off in public. Perhaps you can see the common denominator here. That's why I support the right of a woman to wear it if she says she wants to. Even though it is a symbol of the oppression of women. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted March 17, 2015 Report Posted March 17, 2015 That's why I support the right of a woman to wear it if she says she wants to. Even though it is a symbol of the oppression of women. If she wants to, its not oppression. Quote
Guest Posted March 17, 2015 Report Posted March 17, 2015 If she wants to, its not oppression. Right. Quote
Black Dog Posted March 17, 2015 Report Posted March 17, 2015 No, it's a fact. It's an interpretation aka an opinion. Quote
Black Dog Posted March 17, 2015 Report Posted March 17, 2015 In what world? This one, not whatever strange alternate reality you reside in. Quote
Guest Posted March 17, 2015 Report Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) Well, we're getting into Pantomime now... Edited March 17, 2015 by bcsapper Quote
Black Dog Posted March 17, 2015 Report Posted March 17, 2015 Well, we're getting into Pantomime now... No, it's very straightforward. To you and others, the niqab represents oppression of women. To other people, likely including the actual practitioners, it represents something else: modesty, privacy, religious commitment. It's a matter of perspective, not a question of fact. Quote
Guest Posted March 17, 2015 Report Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) No, it's very straightforward. To you and others, the niqab represents oppression of women. To other people, likely including the actual practitioners, it represents something else: modesty, privacy, religious commitment. It's a matter of perspective, not a question of fact. Likely including the actual practioners? I bet you wouldn't care to advance a number there? A percentage of those actual practitioners who wear it freely. Also, taking the religious committment point. The jury seems to be unable to come up with a verdict on whether the veil is religious, or cultural, or both, But for those who do wear it due to religious committment, how does that change it's symbolism? It's not like religions can't oppress. Just an aside: With the panto comment, I wasn't referring to the issue itself. Just the fact that we were getting into a "Oh yes it is" - "Oh no it isn't" type of argument. Edited March 17, 2015 by bcsapper Quote
GostHacked Posted March 17, 2015 Report Posted March 17, 2015 I think people are getting the Niqab and the Hijab mixed up. Might be part of the confusion with their stance. The Niqab has no place in our society. Th Hijab I don't have a problem with. Quote
overthere Posted March 17, 2015 Report Posted March 17, 2015 Boy, the politically correct are in an intellectually bankrupt frenzy on this issue. Oh yep, yep, objecting to the symbol of hateful misogyny, murderous homophobia and violent religious extremism is EXACTLY the same as wanting death camps! I congratulate you on your perceptiveness! What a shrewd fellow you are! It's a pity that intelligent discussion is so beyond some people. It's sad to them sitting there by the wayside hurling epithets and insults for want of an ability to think, analyze positions and talk in anything remotely approaching a mature fashion. like I said. I believe you are the chap who insisted that I was a leftard , politically correct idiot and liar for suggesting that although I support Harper in many things including my vote, I was a liar when I said he was wrong in this case. So, I'll ask you again- what is it about THIS woman wearing a niqab in THIS circumstance that has you so frightened. Islam is not on trial here. Let's have that intelligent discussion. Here, I'll start: Your repeated presumption that she is some sort of bomb wielding threat to our homes is preposterous and bigoted. Quote Science too hard for you? Try religion!
Guest Posted March 17, 2015 Report Posted March 17, 2015 like I said. I believe you are the chap who insisted that I was a leftard , politically correct idiot and liar for suggesting that although I support Harper in many things including my vote, I was a liar when I said he was wrong in this case. So, I'll ask you again- what is it about THIS woman wearing a niqab in THIS circumstance that has you so frightened. Islam is not on trial here. Let's have that intelligent discussion. Here, I'll start: Your repeated presumption that she is some sort of bomb wielding threat to our homes is preposterous and bigoted. Argus can answer for himself, but if I might, I'll ask you a similar question. What is it about the objection of some on here to the wearing of the niqab at a citizenship ceremony that has got you invoking death camps? Quote
TimG Posted March 17, 2015 Report Posted March 17, 2015 So, I'll ask you again- what is it about THIS woman wearing a niqab in THIS circumstance that has you so frightened. Islam is not on trial here. Let's have that intelligent discussion.It is a symbol of oppression that many Muslims reject (the niqab is banned in Egypt and Turkey). Just like a KKK hood or a swastika are symbols of hatred. Asking that symbols that do not represent Canadian values be removed during citizenship ceremonies is a reasonable restriction on a person's freedom of expression. Quote
Keepitsimple Posted March 17, 2015 Report Posted March 17, 2015 like I said. I believe you are the chap who insisted that I was a leftard , politically correct idiot and liar for suggesting that although I support Harper in many things including my vote, I was a liar when I said he was wrong in this case. So, I'll ask you again- what is it about THIS woman wearing a niqab in THIS circumstance that has you so frightened. Islam is not on trial here. Let's have that intelligent discussion. Here, I'll start: Your repeated presumption that she is some sort of bomb wielding threat to our homes is preposterous and bigoted. I'd like to take that question on behalf of what appears to be a huge majority of Canadians. It's not about THIS woman.....and it's certainly not about bombs. It's about pushback. It's about "enough is enough". It's about Reasonable Accommodation - the same dialogue that has been occurring in Quebec for several years. It's about Canadians making accommodation for other cultures AND other cultures making accommodation for Canadians. We are a tolerent country - as our multi-cultural practice indicates.....but enough is enough - there has to be a little bit of "give" to offset the "take". That's the crux of this case. Quote Back to Basics
Black Dog Posted March 17, 2015 Report Posted March 17, 2015 Likely including the actual practioners? I bet you wouldn't care to advance a number there? A percentage of those actual practitioners who wear it freely. Such a number would of course be impossible to obtain. However, I feel confident it is greater than zero. Quote
guyser Posted March 17, 2015 Report Posted March 17, 2015 It is a symbol of oppression that many Muslims rejectIt is something many (incl th survey posted here) want to wear ergo it is not a symbol of oppression. Just like a KKK hood or a swastika are symbols of hatred.So a KKK hood and the hijab are symbols of hate. You can think that should you wish, but it is apparently not even close to true. Asking that symbols that do not represent Canadian values be removed during citizenship ceremonies is a reasonable restriction on a person's freedom of expression.What Canadian values? Is there a booklet you can direct me to that says CDN values do not include the wearing of any partial face covering? Quote
Black Dog Posted March 17, 2015 Report Posted March 17, 2015 I'd like to take that question on behalf of what appears to be a huge majority of Canadians. It's not about THIS woman.....and it's certainly not about bombs. It's about pushback. It's about "enough is enough". It's about Reasonable Accommodation - the same dialogue that has been occurring in Quebec for several years. It's about Canadians making accommodation for other cultures AND other cultures making accommodation for Canadians. We are a tolerent country - as our multi-cultural practice indicates.....but enough is enough - there has to be a little bit of "give" to offset the "take". That's the crux of this case. What exactly is being "taken" here, hmmm? Quote
cybercoma Posted March 17, 2015 Author Report Posted March 17, 2015 Yea, you're way above insults. Never said I was, but you whiners need to quit complaining when people point out the racist and bigoted elements of your arguments. If you don't like it, then stop making them. Otherwise, own up to it. Quote
cybercoma Posted March 17, 2015 Author Report Posted March 17, 2015 Just an aside: With the panto comment, I wasn't referring to the issue itself. Just the fact that we were getting into a "Oh yes it is" - "Oh no it isn't" type of argument. There's no "yes it is or no it isn't" when it comes to the definition of a fact vs opinion. Your interpretation of the niqab is an opinion. It's an interpretation, a personal opinion that can neither be proven, nor disproven. Your opinion is also does not override the opinion of those who wear it, namely the woman who was willing to go to court to fight the ban at citizenship ceremonies. She made it very clear why she wears it. What makes you think your opinion on it overrides hers? Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted March 17, 2015 Report Posted March 17, 2015 In fact the judge who struck this ban down didnt need to go to the charter to do so. When Jason Kenney wrote his policy manual he violated the Immigration Act, which is the governments own law, and therefore was found unlawful by the court. Harper and co. should do a little homework before they go declaring edicts that just end up wasting the courts time, and our tax dollars. Quote
cybercoma Posted March 17, 2015 Author Report Posted March 17, 2015 I think people are getting the Niqab and the Hijab mixed up. Might be part of the confusion with their stance. The Niqab has no place in our society. Th Hijab I don't have a problem with. No. I think most people, except for Argus, understand the difference between the hijab, niqab, and burqa. Those differences have been described a number of times, despite the aforementioned poster calling the hijab a "bag over their heads." Quote
cybercoma Posted March 17, 2015 Author Report Posted March 17, 2015 I'd like to take that question on behalf of what appears to be a huge majority of Canadians. It's not about THIS woman.....and it's certainly not about bombs. It's about pushback. It's about "enough is enough". It's about Reasonable Accommodation - the same dialogue that has been occurring in Quebec for several years. It's about Canadians making accommodation for other cultures AND other cultures making accommodation for Canadians. We are a tolerent country - as our multi-cultural practice indicates.....but enough is enough - there has to be a little bit of "give" to offset the "take". That's the crux of this case. So in other words you're just an unaccommodating bigot. Nobody's taking anything from you here. You're the one trying to take away their cultural and religious identity from them because you're completely intolerant and have a superiority complex. Quote
Guest Posted March 17, 2015 Report Posted March 17, 2015 There's no "yes it is or no it isn't" when it comes to the definition of a fact vs opinion. Your interpretation of the niqab is an opinion. It's an interpretation, a personal opinion that can neither be proven, nor disproven. Your opinion is also does not override the opinion of those who wear it, namely the woman who was willing to go to court to fight the ban at citizenship ceremonies. She made it very clear why she wears it. What makes you think your opinion on it overrides hers? I keep coming back to the same point. It doesn't matter why she wore (wears) it. I support her right to wear it. None of that changes the fact that it is a symbol of the oppression of women. The two are not incompatible. Quote
Big Guy Posted March 17, 2015 Report Posted March 17, 2015 I do not understand that the posters who state bigoted beliefs get excited when they are identified as bigots. The Mirriam-Webster dictionary defines bigot as :a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc: a bigoted person; especially : a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group). You folks dislike Muslims and their ideas. You refuse to accept them. Muslims are a religious group. Why do you try to reject what you are? Be proud of your beliefs and take ownership of your views. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
cybercoma Posted March 17, 2015 Author Report Posted March 17, 2015 I keep coming back to the same point. It doesn't matter why she wore (wears) it. I support her right to wear it. None of that changes the fact that it is a symbol of the oppression of women. The two are not incompatible. It's not a fact simply because you say it is. If it is a fact, you're wrong because the person who wears it says it isn't a sign of oppression. Fact: Money comes in a variety of denominations. Opinion: Money is a symbol of the economic oppression of the working class. Is it really so hard to understand the difference? This stuff is taught in grade schools around the country. Quote
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