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[LemonPureLeaf]

Which Catholics/Jews/Pentecostals ... are Canadian first, religion second?

The vast majority of Canadians are not white supremacists.

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Neither am I. I'm not white either.

Its not a matter of wanting to be in a minority it's a matter of indifference but maybe that's even scarier to you.

Thank you for an explanation.

When I say white, im referring to the western way of life, not white in the racial sense.

[Big Guy]

I wonder what would happen if that judge had ordered the woman to remove her headdress and there was a profanity tattooed on her forehead. Would she then be ordered to put her headdress on?

[eyeball]

When I say white, im referring to the western way of life, not white in the racial sense.

Yeah, I got that right away when you said white people.

I'm not white either.

I know what you mean...I'm more pink myself but I'll brown up a little in the summer.

[Argus]

I believe that Christians believe the entire bible, including the old testament and its laws. Are you saying now that Christianity doesn't include the precepts of a legal system ?

Can you show me where anything comparable to Sharia law can be found? Not to mention the sections of the Koran which deal with family law and civil government?

[LemonPureLeaf]

Yeah, I got that right away when you said white people.I know what you mean...I'm more pink myself but I'll brown up a little in the summer.

im glad you understood what I meant, thank you.

Im cant be a white supremacist because I dont belong to the Caucasian racial group, more commonly refered to as white.

[Argus]

But Michael, those are people who want to get out of those countries, away from the extremism.

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I have no doubt some of them are. But overall, no. You don't want to flee extremism if you're a fundamentalist yourself, and women who wear hijabs are, if not fundamentalists, certainly in line with them on most of their thinking. They come here for the same reason people want to come here from Haiti and Jamaica and the Philippines, because this is a rich country with a lot of economic possibilities. How many people do you think would be lining up to come here from the middle east if we were a poverty stricken country? Why are tens of thousands of "Canadians" living in Lebanon now? They came here to flee fundamentalism, did they? Then went right back home? How many other Canadian Muslim immigrants go back home? How many go home to find brides and grooms for their children so their grandchildren will be raised with the proper conservative social attitudes?

[Argus]

Well I agree with that point, which is why I have always said that it is connected to the religion. I want to be clear, you see, while others prefer to just slam the religion without any clear point to it. Argus at least is clear in wanting to reduce immigration "from Muslim countries"...

To be clear, I want to reduce immigration, period. But yes, I think, given the economic success rate of people from that part of the world vs the success rate of others, given the social gap between their fundamental social beliefs and ours, given the security challenges they represent, and given the much better alternatives, that it is perfectly logical to want to reduce immigration from that area in particular.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Argus

[poochy]

It's hard to take that position seriously when the remedy being offered is to force women to comply with it.

How does that work.

Again, if force is the only solution then force the men to wear blinders. They're the ones with the problem.

No, what you would acctually be doing is preventing the male oppressors in their lives from forcing them to wear it. But this line of thinking is more about your biases than your concern for women's false choices, the typical left wing red herring on culture.

[Rue]

Bottom line, I agree with those who say show your face in public at public ceremonies, when driving a car, when engaging in the court process,elections, for security reasons and in the case of court for credibility reasons. If you can't show your face, which is a cultural not a religious choice, then its time to assimilate to that degree.

Its ridiculous to think you can drive a car with your face covered for vision reasons and because driving is a privilege not a right and police need to see one's face.It might prevent one from dying after they approach a car pulling one over.

Also its necessary to i.d. the driver.

In court credibility and the right to full cross examination to determine credibility depends on the face.

Taking an oath of citizenship, personally I believe if you make the statement you want Canada to accommodate the total face cover up I think as a state we have the right to say no, its not a cultural value we want.

That said, the Quebec Judge went too far he other day.Its one thing to cover your face. To call here head not face covering a scarf worn like a hat was stupid. What next. Will we tell Sieks to remove their turban, Jews their yamachas, and people to hide any crucifixes and of course nuns and Priests or Christian clergy to defrock in court? Would this Judge have told an Orthodox Christian clergy to remove their head covering? You either apply that rule across the board or its inconsistent and therefore arbitrary,

Look I am like most Canadians. We are not against immigration or anyone.We just expect ANYONE who comes here to accept some certain basic common social values. We can not be all things to all people. On the other hand,no we don't have to go so far as to harass some woman dressed the way the woman was in Quebec. Her full face could be seen and she was not obscene in any way.

What if she had chemotherapy? Surely the Judge would show compassion and not demand she remove a head covering and so? What next we must remove wigs? Will we tell Salvation Army people to take off their uniforms?

No sorry there has to be a bit of common sense here.

You want to come to this country and have more than one wife, no. You want to come to this country and cover your entire face and there is no frigid weather or snow storm, sorry, you want to participate in certain activities in public, show your face. If you can't make that basic compromise you are not compatible with living in this country until you can. That is not unfair if its applied to everyone equally.

Me I don't wear religious coverings. Don't think much of them but I am not so uptight as to fret over a woman with her head covered.

If she wants to vote,drive, go to a job interview, she better get used to reality.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Rue

[eyeball]

No, what you would acctually be doing is preventing the male oppressors in their lives from forcing them to wear it.

No I wouldn't. I'd be patiently allowing time for our culture to seep into theirs through their kids and grand-kids. The same way it's been for generations of immigrants.

But this line of thinking is more about your biases than your concern for women's false choices, the typical left wing red herring on culture.

Horseshit. It's a line of reason born from experiencing first hand the process I've just described plus seeing, reading and hearing about how the same process at work in almost all other families and cultures...your own (typically?) right-wing culture notwithstanding, apparently.

[On Guard for Thee]

I have no doubt some of them are. But overall, no. You don't want to flee extremism if you're a fundamentalist yourself, and women who wear hijabs are, if not fundamentalists, certainly in line with them on most of their thinking. They come here for the same reason people want to come here from Haiti and Jamaica and the Philippines, because this is a rich country with a lot of economic possibilities. How many people do you think would be lining up to come here from the middle east if we were a poverty stricken country? Why are tens of thousands of "Canadians" living in Lebanon now? They came here to flee fundamentalism, did they? Then went right back home? How many other Canadian Muslim immigrants go back home? How many go home to find brides and grooms for their children so their grandchildren will be raised with the proper conservative social attitudes?

Well which is it, how can Muslim immigrants overrun Canada if they all go back home anyway...But I think in one way you did answer your own question, they likely wouldnt come here if it was a poverty stricken country, or had no more freedom than their country of origin, so why would people jump through the hoops ad expense of coming here and then either go back home or wreck this place. Makes not a lot of sense.

[Argus]

Well which is it, how can Muslim immigrants overrun Canada if they all go back home anyway...

Clearly they don't all go back home. Let's face it, life is better here than almost anywhere else.

But I think in one way you did answer your own question, they likely wouldnt come here if it was a poverty stricken country, or had no more freedom than their country of origin, so why would people jump through the hoops ad expense of coming here and then either go back home or wreck this place. Makes not a lot of sense.

It's not like it's a conspiracy, or has any organization behind it. No one immigrates here wanting to make this country a worse place to live in. But culture is something you grow up with, so that everything about it seems entirely natural, and things which are opposed to it seem unnatural. Add religion to that mix, especially a deeply held, deeply felt religion, and there isn't a lot of doubt in their hearts about what is the right way to live.

Do they want to make Canada like the dysfunctional and corrupt places they left? Hell, no. But I doubt you would find many Muslim immigrants who will tell you they think Islam, or the cultural mindset it brings, is in any way responsible for the poor condition of those countries. And of those who would suggest it might be in some way responsible - it's pretty unlikely their wives are wearing niquabs or hijabs. Because these are deep believers in Islam and it's cultural and value set.

[eyeball]

Do they want to make Canada like the dysfunctional and corrupt places they left? Hell, no. But I doubt you would find many Muslim immigrants who will tell you they think Islam, or the cultural mindset it brings, is in any way responsible for the poor condition of those countries.

Of course not, most would tell you it's because they're fleeing the snake-pit of dictators and despots we inflicted on them for being born on our oil.

And of those who would suggest it might be in some way responsible - it's pretty unlikely their wives are wearing niquabs or hijabs. Because these are deep believers in Islam and it's cultural and value set.

Don't worry, it wouldn't be long until you were condemning them for bringing their progressive values and draining our nation's precious bodily fluids or Canadian blood or some equally cocked-up notion.

[jacee]

Neither am I. I'm not white either.

Thank you for an explanation.

When I say white, im referring to the western way of life, not white in the racial sense.

Ya I'm sure. :/

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[jacee]

No, what you would acctually be doing is preventing the male oppressors in their lives from forcing them to wear it. But this line of thinking is more about your biases than your concern for women's false choices, the typical left wing red herring on culture.

The thread is about a woman who went to court and won the right to keep her niqab on during the public oath of citizenship.

Her choice to wear it, her business.

You want to force her to follow your orders instead?

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[WestCoastRunner]

I'm pretty sure if we had more women posters on this Forum, we'd here more comments like yours.

Hmmm, I wonder how we could get more women posting here? Has anyone suggested ideas?

[WestCoastRunner]

The thread is about a woman who went to court and won the right to keep her niqab on during the public oath of citizenship.

Her choice to wear it, her business.

You want to force her to follow your orders instead?

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You are correct that this thread is about a court decision. However, as women (2 women) and men weighing in on this decision from an emotional perspective, it will be significantly different than from a legal point of view.

Edited March 1, 2015 by WestCoastRunner

[WestCoastRunner]

You want to provide support for the statement that "in most cases this isn't their choice"? Clearly in the OP this was her choice. She even went to court to fight for it, claiming that it was her free choice to do so. More importantly there is research in Canada that shows that many women wear the niqab or hijab against their families' wishes. You're making ethnocentric assumptions that are indicative of a feminist mindset that ignores theories of intersectionality. This is a woman, yes, but she's also a Muslim who faces discrimination based on her religion and culture. Telling her that she shouldn't wear the niqab because some women are forced to wear it against their will ignores her free will to wear it as an expression of her faith and culture. That's as oppressive as patriarchal control over women. You're just flexing ethnocentric control over her religious and cultural expression instead. Look into theories of intersectionality and recognize your own ethnocultural privilege here.

Edit: That studied is referred to in the National Post article from earlier.

This study had 80 women. Not really a comprehensive study.

[Bonam]

Hmmm, I wonder how we could get more women posting here? Has anyone suggested ideas?

Or, for that matter, how we could get more of anyone posting here. I don't think there's any particular effort or mechanism to draw people to this forum, apart from the fact that if one googles "Canadian political forums" or "political forums Canada" or something along those lines, this site is the #1 hit. As for ideas to attract more women specifically... you had mentioned adding a subforum on women's issues; apart from that, I am unaware of any ideas being suggested.

[WestCoastRunner]

Or, for that matter, how we could get more of anyone posting here. I don't think there's any particular effort or mechanism to draw people to this forum, apart from the fact that if one googles "Canadian political forums" or "political forums Canada" or something along those lines, this site is the #1 hit. As for ideas to attract more women specifically... you had mentioned adding a subforum on women's issues; apart from that, I am unaware of any ideas being suggested.

I was actually being sarcastic. Sorry. I have indeed suggested ideas to entice women to post here, that have largely been ignored.

[poochy]

I was actually being sarcastic. Sorry. I have indeed suggested ideas to entice women to post here, that have largely been ignored.

As it should be. Perhaps i could ask my wife to find the time to join, but i don't think you will find the comfort you seem to be looking for. She isn't much for nonsense, and not just a man's nonsense.

Edited March 1, 2015 by poochy

[On Guard for Thee]

As it should be. Perhaps i could ask my wife to find the time to join, but i don't think you will find the comfort you seem to be looking for. She isn't much for nonsense, and not just a man's nonsense.

How do you ever get along then.

[Michael Hardner]

But Michael, those are people who want to get out of those countries, away from the extremism.

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The points of view I was describing, with regards to restricting immigration, aren't shared by me.

[Michael Hardner]

Can you show me where anything comparable to Sharia law can be found?

Didn't answer my question, so I'll assume that you agree with me.

What do you mean by comparable ? And what is the point of this inquiry with regards to the topic at hand ?

If you're just looking for another way to condemn all Muslim people thanks to the actions of some backwards countries, I'm not interested. You've indicated that you want to restrict immigration from Muslim countries yet you say it's for economic reasons - then why not express your concern in economic terms rather than xenophobic ones.

[msj]

We've been down this path before and nobody has explained why the silly ideas of the bible aren't to be blamed for bad behavior by non-Muslims. As near as I can figure, it's just part of a circular reasoning that blames both the book and the behavior for causing each other, ie. the people behave badly because of the book, but Christian people don't believe their silly book you see because they are better people...

Here is a link to that video I mentioned yesterday: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-young-turks-interview

It is long.

As for Christians: we have lots of historical examples of Christians doing bad things inspired by their readings from the Bible.

The KKK, the Crusades, the Inquisition, slavery, criminalizing homosexuality etc are all examples.

I think Christians can be as messed up as any other group of people depending upon what parts of the Bible are used for inspiration and what parts are ignored.

For example: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/03/01/a-most-unsettling-trend-christians-rejoicing-in-isis/

That's a strange philosophy that any non religious person has to be aware of in case these freaks want to foist the end of days on us non believers.

In other words, the more any person looks to an ancient book like Leviticus, Revelation, or The Koran as a guide for moral behaviour the more likely that person is to hate gays, and infidels and etc.... And the more likely that person will act on that hate if that person is surrounded in a culture of like minded people where bad behaviour happens too frequently.