Harper Reflects on John A. MacDonald - the making of Canada

[eyeball]

No, I'm talking about whether or not the story of his drunkenness and racism was remarkable in a historical context. It isn't. His central role in the creation of Canada, is in fact, quite remarkable. It's not an opinion.

The role could have been played much better by a sober humanist - if it was I think it's clear Canada would be that much better today.

The impression being touted now, in the context of the present, is that MacDonald's role was glorious ergo so is Canada, which is definitely just an opinion and not a fact at all.

[poochy]

The role could have been played much better by a sober humanist - if it was I think it's clear Canada would be that much better today.

The impression being touted now, in the context of the present, is that MacDonald's role was glorious ergo so is Canada, which is definitely just an opinion and not a fact at all.

Who said it was "glorious"? What's being said, many, many times, is he was a racist, but that wasn't uncommon, so he wasn't special. It's sort of like a math equation with Mcdonald's role in creating Canada on one side and most everyone else, and their accomplishments on the other, both being divided by their racist divisor. Being more or less normal in his racist opinion you could cancel out the racist divisor and compare the real differences.

That's all. But you already know that. What compels your need to somehow lower what he or anyone did without considering (actually, really, truthfully, honestly, if you can) the time in which they lived is your hang up. He did what he did, what happened happened, his role in creating the country doesn't need to be dissected in every way that might somehow diminish it. Does it seriously matter so much to some of you that you just can't help yourself with the but, but, but's? When, two hundred years after he was born we acknowledge his contribution? This is somehow too much of an affront to you beliefs? This relatively small acknowledgement, you have to tear him down and the country he helped create? For what exactly, is your life not just the way you imagined it, is that his fault too? You must cringe at every 10 dollar bill that comes your way.

[TimG]

He did what he did, what happened happened, his role in creating the country doesn't need to be dissected in every way that might somehow diminish it.

What is really stupid about the people who obsess over negative traits is they don't realize that those negative traits were likely a prerequisite for their accomplishments. i.e. it was likely practically impossible for someone who was not a racist to become an influential politician at the time. This meant the only real choice in history: have someone who was racist unite the country or the country never united and eventually would have been absorbed into the US. Edited January 24, 2015 by TimG

[eyeball]

Who said it was "glorious"?

The impression being touted. Was it not clear what I meant when I said that?

This is somehow too much of an affront to you beliefs?

It is when I get the sense the people turning corrupt drunken racists into shining beacons are hoping a little of that glory will also be a reflection on them.

Like I said above I was raised up like most Canadians to believe that I did live in the best country on Earth and much of that belief was based on the same sort of glorification of past accomplishments, historical figures and ideals. The reality I discovered on the ground when I grew up and saw the holes in the story changed all that. Seeing the same basic process of glorification for the same basic reason, pretending we're something we're not, galls me. I've seen and felt the effect of enough poisoned domestic process' of Canadian governance in addition to the government's squandering of our ideals and principles in our foreign policies that no amount glorification will ever take the gunk off the tarnish.

But hey, if you say Macdonald's character or behaviour was no better or different than the average for the times, who am I to argue? All I'm saying is that it shows when I look around at what we've built - it helps explains some of our more egregious deficiencies, our lack of originality, inability or gumption to raise our standards or up our game any higher than required.

The only thing Harper said that I can get behind is that nation building is never complete, but I'd probably go a step or two farther and say that occasionally you have to rebuild sections of them including their foundations.

[Argus]

But hey, if you say Macdonald's character or behaviour was no better or different than the average for the times, who am I to argue? All I'm saying is that it shows when I look around at what we've built - it helps explains some of our more egregious deficiencies, our lack of originality, inability or gumption to raise our standards or up our game any higher than required.

What he built was pretty good, as is. Canada is generally a pretty good place to live, and Canadians are generally pretty good people. Especially if you're grading on a scale. I can think of well over a hundred odd countries offhand which are much worse than us.

[Mighty AC]

What he built was pretty good, as is. Canada is generally a pretty good place to live, and Canadians are generally pretty good people. Especially if you're grading on a scale. I can think of well over a hundred odd countries offhand which are much worse than us.

True, but according to various metrics we have been in decline for a decade. It's a nice place to live, but it never feels good know we're slipping.

[Smallc]

True, but according to various metrics we have been in decline for a decade.

Actually, by many metrics, we haven't been. Some countries have gotten better faster, but the middle class in Canada has been very insulated from many of the problems of other countries. They've actually become richer and more content, and were, up until recently anyway, the richest middle class in the world. We are also less taxed than we have been in a long time. More disposable income generally leads to a better quality of life. Added to the fact that we're living longer than we ever have paints a very different picture than what you're saying here.

[eyeball]

All this good stuff has way more to do with us and the wealth of natural capital our ancestors captured than anything our mode or system of government has done.

Our government basks in our glow, not the other way around.

[On Guard for Thee]

What is really stupid about the people who obsess over negative traits is they don't realize that those negative traits were likely a prerequisite for their accomplishments. i.e. it was likely practically impossible for someone who was not a racist to become an influential politician at the time. This meant the only real choice in history: have someone who was racist unite the country or the country never united and eventually would have been absorbed into the US.

I have heard some juicy rationalizations in my day, but that one has to take the cake.

[Mighty AC]

Actually, by many metrics, we haven't been. Some countries have gotten better faster, but the middle class in Canada has been very insulated from many of the problems of other countries. They've actually become richer and more content, and were, up until recently anyway, the richest middle class in the world. We are also less taxed than we have been in a long time. More disposable income generally leads to a better quality of life. Added to the fact that we're living longer than we ever have paints a very different picture than what you're saying here.

We have actually declined in some of the past 10 years and 10 or so nations have improved faster than we have. Being passed in a race doesn't feel good even if you're moving forward.

[Keepitsimple]

I have heard some juicy rationalizations in my day, but that one has to take the cake.

On Guard, sometimes I have to wonder how someone can be so "out there" with their partisanship - or should I say "anti-anything-Conservative". Once again, you've taken a balanced comment from a poster and replied with a shallow comment - with nothing to back it up. Here's an article from the NY Times - generally considered to be a Left Wing/Democratic paper:

The American middle class, long the most affluent in the world, has lost that distinction.

While the wealthiest Americans are outpacing many of their global peers, a New York Times analysis shows that across the lower- and middle-income tiers, citizens of other advanced countries have received considerably larger raises over the last three decades.

After-tax middle-class incomes in Canada — substantially behind in 2000 — now appear to be higher than in the United States.

Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/23/upshot/the-american-middle-class-is-no-longer-the-worlds-richest.html

[On Guard for Thee]

On Guard, sometimes I have to wonder how someone can be so "out there" with their partisanship - or should I say "anti-anything-Conservative". Once again, you've taken a balanced comment from a poster and replied with a shallow comment - with nothing to back it up. Here's an article from the NY Times - generally considered to be a Left Wing/Democratic paper:

Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/23/upshot/the-american-middle-class-is-no-longer-the-worlds-richest.html

How "out there" do you have to be to conclude that racism was an essential part of working toward forming a country?

[Smallc]

How "out there" do you have to be to conclude that racism was an essential part of working toward forming a country?

Everyone was racist back then (or very close to everyone). That's not a defence of racism, but a contextual reality.

[Keepitsimple]

How "out there" do you have to be to conclude that racism was an essential part of working toward forming a country?

Actually - my apologies. I got my topic and posts mixed up.

[eyeball]

On Guard, sometimes I have to wonder how someone can be so "out there" with their partisanship - or should I say "anti-anything-Conservative". Once again, you've taken a balanced comment from a poster and replied with a shallow comment - with nothing to back it up. Here's an article from the NY Times - generally considered to be a Left Wing/Democratic paper:

Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/23/upshot/the-american-middle-class-is-no-longer-the-worlds-richest.html

All this does is show how poorly ordinary people in the US are faring by crowing that we haven't fared as poorly while ignoring that both of us fell behind a bunch of other countries in which ordinary people improved. We just didn't fall faster than a country that pro-rich Conservatives would like us to be more like ourselves? No doubt our rich are pouting at the news.

[PIK]

You are not racist in ant way on guard?

[Argus]

All this good stuff has way more to do with us and the wealth of natural capital our ancestors captured than anything our mode or system of government has done.

Our government basks in our glow, not the other way around.

There are other countries with a wealth of resources which reek. You need stability, order, and reasonably competent, reasonably honest government for people to prosper.

[eyeball]

Canada would reek a lot worse if access to our resources were the exclusive preserve of a greedy super-power and the puppet government running us.

[jbg]

What he built was pretty good, as is. Canada is generally a pretty good place to live, and Canadians are generally pretty good people. Especially if you're grading on a scale. I can think of well over a hundred odd countries offhand which are much worse than us.

I would expand that to say that almost all countries are worse than Canada, the exceptions being the other core English-speaking countries (the U.S., Australia, New Zealand and the U.K.) plus Israel, which in many ways is such a country. Maybe I would add the five Scandinavian countries to the mix. Possibly Switzerland. Can you come up with any others?

[Keepitsimple]

I would expand that to say that almost all countries are worse than Canada, the exceptions being the other core English-speaking countries (the U.S., Australia, New Zealand and the U.K.) plus Israel, which in many ways is such a country. Maybe I would add the five Scandinavian countries to the mix. Possibly Switzerland. Can you come up with any others?

Germany was in a pretty good spot until they got bogged down with EU debtor nations. Now Germans are paying for other countries' bad policies - and that makes people Grumpy......so we'll have to see how that plays out. In general, you can judge how "good" a country is by how many people emmigrate to other countries.

[eyeball]

In light of Canada's Premiers gathering in Ottawa and in the wake of Harper leaving town and recent reflections on nation building and Sir J Himself, one can only ask;

WWJD?

[guyser]

Why he would.......................

[jbg]

Germany was in a pretty good spot until they got bogged down with EU debtor nations. Now Germans are paying for other countries' bad policies - and that makes people Grumpy......so we'll have to see how that plays out. In general, you can judge how "good" a country is by how many people emmigrate to other countries.

I still meet a lot of German expats here.

[On Guard for Thee]

You are not racist in ant way on guard?

Not any way I can think of. A good upbringing helped to start with, and later on a lot of travelling taught me to respect people regardless of race. I will hasten to add and admit I am wary of religions...but all of them. Is that racist.

I guess it was acceptable in John As time.

Edited February 15, 2015 by On Guard for Thee