drummindiver Posted January 10, 2015 Report Posted January 10, 2015 Sorry I did not make myself clear. We do not put people in jail for threatening people in other parts of the world. The example I used was someone posting on their Facebook page that they wish Putin was dead and would like to kill Putin. The government finds out they have an airline ticket to Paris do we put him in jail and keep him from leaving? Of course not. We would soon fill all those jails that Harper is building. Wow. So, Canadians plan to travel to other parts of the world to kill ppl for radicalized ideology, and you still manage to make it about Harper? Listen, I'm glad they arrested these two. If the UK or Pakistan, or whomever knew that some radicalized nutters were coming to Canada to blow up the Big Guy's house, how would you feel if they just said "not our problem?". Quote
drummindiver Posted January 11, 2015 Report Posted January 11, 2015 It's just a few bad apples. Oh wait, that was from a couple of days ago. Ok, this is just some more bad apples, that's all. Stephen Harper probably said something to make them angry. lol. It's not just Harper that makes them angry. Allowing freedom of speech in America really pisses them off also. Notice that the Arabs assaulting ppl with weapons were not arrested, but the peaceful non-Arabs were told they would be arrested if they didn't leave. What the fu*k? (sorry if this didn't happen yesterday-I still feel it relevant to the discussion) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBaTVwIJH-E Quote
Big Guy Posted January 11, 2015 Author Report Posted January 11, 2015 There is a Canadian diaspora distributed around the world. It has been there for years and has proven us proud in most instances. We have never, ever had a policy where we force Canadians to stay in this country under the penalty of incarceration if they try to leave. I cannot believe that our government would consider a policy where Canadian citizens would be arrested at the border for trying to LEAVE the country. What the hell are we - East Germany or the Soviet Union or North Korea? We talk about freedom of speech that is so sacred - how about the freedom to LEAVE the country? Good grief! Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
On Guard for Thee Posted January 11, 2015 Report Posted January 11, 2015 There is a Canadian diaspora distributed around the world. It has been there for years and has proven us proud in most instances. We have never, ever had a policy where we force Canadians to stay in this country under the penalty of incarceration if they try to leave. I cannot believe that our government would consider a policy where Canadian citizens would be arrested at the border for trying to LEAVE the country. What the hell are we - East Germany or the Soviet Union or North Korea? We talk about freedom of speech that is so sacred - how about the freedom to LEAVE the country? Good grief! You seem to keep completely either ignoring or forgetting the fact that they were not arrested for simply leaving the country. Go back and read what the charges are, there's a lot more to it. Quote
jacee Posted January 11, 2015 Report Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) jacee said: Nathan Cirillo and Patrice Vincent were both killed by crazies upset about being delayed/prevented from leaving the country. Pause ............ for thought. ..which has nothing to do with what I posted. No? We're stopping terrorist murders from happening somewhere else, whether it's Yemen or the UK. So they're doing it here instead. Just sayin ... . Edited January 11, 2015 by jacee Quote
Michael Hardner Posted January 11, 2015 Report Posted January 11, 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBaTVwIJH-E An essay by the guy behind this video: But if standardized testing suggests a racial component to IQ, if the New York City and national murder statistics suggest there is a racial component to murder, why is that necessarily a bad racism? With all of the liberal talk of evolution and biology, why do people find it so difficult to confront the facts that some races perform better in sports, some better in mathematical problem solving, some better in language, some better in Western societies and some better in tribal ones? http://www.mcadamreport.org/The%20McAdam%20Report%28585%29-05-12-06.pdf He's a strong believer, it seems, that race and genetics are behind behaviors such as crime. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted January 11, 2015 Report Posted January 11, 2015 No? No, I was talking about state-sanctioned and state-directed killing and police actions, such as arresting people abroad for crimes committed here, or crimes committed abroad. So they're doing it here instead. Just sayin ... . Yes, they're now arresting people here for potential crimes abroad. Just as well... Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Big Guy Posted January 11, 2015 Author Report Posted January 11, 2015 To - ON Guard For Thee - I understand that they are charged with a number of illegal acts. My contention is that ONE of those illegal acts is to "attempt to leave the country for terrorist activities". I would encourage the prosecution of any individual for any acts committed on Canadian soil or against Canadians BUT we have a law on our books that leaving the country (for a reason that our governments disagrees with) to be a criminal act. That to me is unacceptable! Talking about taking away the freedoms of Canadian citizens. The government tells you if you can or cannot leave the country depending on your reasons for leaving. And people are concerned with the freedom of speech? How about the freedom to leave your country? Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
jacee Posted January 11, 2015 Report Posted January 11, 2015 No, I was talking about state-sanctioned and state-directed killing and police actions, such as arresting people abroad for crimes committed here, or crimes committed abroad. Yes, they're now arresting people here for potential crimes abroad. Just as well... Are you being intentionally obtuse? Let me spell it out: Nathan Cirillo and Patrice Vincent were killed here in Canada by crazy wannabe terrorists ... because they were prevented from leaving the country and they were not monitored for escalation. If we're not going to let them leave, we'd damn well better be monitoring their reaction. Who screwed up? . . Quote
Michael Hardner Posted January 11, 2015 Report Posted January 11, 2015 Are you being intentionally obtuse? No, though I have been accused of that before. Let me spell it out: Nathan Cirillo and Patrice Vincent were killed here in Canada by crazy wannabe terrorists ... because they were prevented from leaving the country and they were not monitored for escalation. If we're not going to let them leave, we'd damn well better be monitoring their reaction. Who screwed up? . . Ok... it seems like the government screwed up. So, my post which you commented on was: "...arrest them and bring them back here on charges then this is an improvement on those policies isn't it " So are you saying that preventing these two from leaving by arresting them is an improvement on what happened with the previous case ? I'm still not sure, sorry for the obtuseness. My point was simply that if we're arresting people abroad and bringing them back here, essentially increasing jurisdiction unilaterally then these arrests are an extension of that approach. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Big Guy Posted January 11, 2015 Author Report Posted January 11, 2015 By the way - Iran has ground troops fighting ISIS. Canada has airplanes dropping bombs on ISIS. If a Canadian decides to leave Canada to fight in the Iranian forces against ISIS should he be prevented from leaving or put in jail if he keeps trying to leave? Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
jacee Posted January 11, 2015 Report Posted January 11, 2015 Ok... it seems like the government screwed up.Yes. So, my post which you commented on was: "...arrest them and bring them back here on charges then this is an improvement on those policies isn't it " So are you saying that preventing these two from leaving by arresting them is an improvement on what happened with the previous case ? I'm still not sure, sorry for the obtuseness. My point was simply that if we're arresting people abroad and bringing them back here, essentially increasing jurisdiction unilaterally then these arrests are an extension of that approach. We can't arrest them anywhere unless they commit a crime. They can be monitored better here. . Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted January 11, 2015 Report Posted January 11, 2015 To - ON Guard For Thee - I understand that they are charged with a number of illegal acts. My contention is that ONE of those illegal acts is to "attempt to leave the country for terrorist activities". I would encourage the prosecution of any individual for any acts committed on Canadian soil or against Canadians BUT we have a law on our books that leaving the country (for a reason that our governments disagrees with) to be a criminal act. That to me is unacceptable! Talking about taking away the freedoms of Canadian citizens. The government tells you if you can or cannot leave the country depending on your reasons for leaving. And people are concerned with the freedom of speech? How about the freedom to leave your country? The difference you seem to be pondering is who's soil a Canadian can commit a criminal act on. If you telegraph that you are about to go somewhere to commit a criminal act, too bad if you get arrested. Once again, if you desire to go to Iraq to side with ISIS for example, don't telegraph it. Quote
jacee Posted January 11, 2015 Report Posted January 11, 2015 By the way - Iran has ground troops fighting ISIS. Canada has airplanes dropping bombs on ISIS. If a Canadian decides to leave Canada to fight in the Iranian forces against ISIS should he be prevented from leaving or put in jail if he keeps trying to leave? You can't arrest someone who hasn't done anything wrong. . Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted January 11, 2015 Report Posted January 11, 2015 By the way - Iran has ground troops fighting ISIS. Canada has airplanes dropping bombs on ISIS. If a Canadian decides to leave Canada to fight in the Iranian forces against ISIS should he be prevented from leaving or put in jail if he keeps trying to leave A number of Canadian soldiers have gone to stand with the Kurds. That is not illegal because their attempt to defend their territory from the Syrian's has not been deemed terrorism. However it could get touchy because if they end up shoulder to shoulder with PKK, then it could be deemed illegal, since the PKK has been deemed a terrorist operation. Be careful which war you take on is the advice here, or maybe just stay home and enjoy the peace of Canada. Quote
jacee Posted January 11, 2015 Report Posted January 11, 2015 To - ON Guard For Thee - I understand that they are charged with a number of illegal acts. My contention is that ONE of those illegal acts is to "attempt to leave the country for terrorist activities". I would encourage the prosecution of any individual for any acts committed on Canadian soil or against Canadians BUT we have a law on our books that leaving the country (for a reason that our governments disagrees with) to be a criminal act. That to me is unacceptable! Talking about taking away the freedoms of Canadian citizens. The government tells you if you can or cannot leave the country depending on your reasons for leaving. And people are concerned with the freedom of speech? How about the freedom to leave your country? How do they prove that intent? . Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted January 11, 2015 Report Posted January 11, 2015 We will have to see the evidence as the case rolls out to see if there is cause. Of course it's now before the courts so we won't know for a while. The laws being used here I think haven't been tested a lot yet by courts and it could be there are constitutional constraints. Apparently these two have been tracked for five months or so. Again it will be important to see what's in the RCMP files. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted January 11, 2015 Report Posted January 11, 2015 1. We can't arrest them anywhere unless they commit a crime. 2. They can be monitored better here. 1. Intending to commit a crime, plotting to commit a crime are chargeable offenses. 2. Agreed. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
drummindiver Posted January 11, 2015 Report Posted January 11, 2015 There is a Canadian diaspora distributed around the world. It has been there for years and has proven us proud in most instances. We have never, ever had a policy where we force Canadians to stay in this country under the penalty of incarceration if they try to leave. I cannot believe that our government would consider a policy where Canadian citizens would be arrested at the border for trying to LEAVE the country. What the hell are we - East Germany or the Soviet Union or North Korea? We talk about freedom of speech that is so sacred - how about the freedom to LEAVE the country? Good grief! They have been charged with multiple crimes. As ppl charged with crimes they are not free to just leave Canada. The reasons for this are obvious and legal, and in no way jeopardizes these alleged terrorists civil rights or freedoms. They must be available to be held accountable in a court of law if found guilty, and if they are off murdering and terrorizing, this will not be possible, will it? Quote
jacee Posted January 11, 2015 Report Posted January 11, 2015 1. Intending to commit a crime, plotting to commit a crime are chargeable offenses.Requiring evidence.2. Agreed. Yes. . Quote
Moonlight Graham Posted January 11, 2015 Report Posted January 11, 2015 They will get their day in court. And if convicted, better serving time here than risking they get released and commit other crimes. But if found innocent, then they will be released. Yeah, exactly. Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
Moonlight Graham Posted January 11, 2015 Report Posted January 11, 2015 So we will be making unilateral decisions on who are the good guys and who are the bad guys? Lets say these guys are going to Syria are they going to fight with the Syrian army (bad guys) with the Syrian rebels (good guys) with ISIS (bad guys) with the Kurds (good guys) or ... How about Libya and Yemen? There are numerous groups about which we know nothing about. This is the first (and I hope last) instance of our government deciding who can and who cannot LEAVE the country. Remember when we used to deport people from Canada for doing mischief in Canada. You don't know the specifics of the charges so I can't understand how you can have such a strong opinion on this. Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
Big Guy Posted January 11, 2015 Author Report Posted January 11, 2015 From all newspaper and other media outlets, it indicates that one of the charges will be "An individual can be charged with leaving or attempting to leave the country with the intent of committing an act of terrorism. This provision could apply if someone travelled from Canada to attend a terrorist training camp overseas." So the guy going to train to fight against Assad is going to get arrested? Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Big Guy Posted January 11, 2015 Author Report Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) To Michael - "Intending to commit crime and plotting to commit crimes are chargeable offences" yes if they are done on Canada. What if Putin names certain Canadians on their way to fight in Ukraine on the Kiev side? What if Kiev names certain Canadians on their way to fight in Ukraine for the rebels? What if we find certain Canadians planning to go to Israel to join the Jewish Defence League? What if we find certain Canadians on their way to Gaza to join Hamas? What about in Chechnya? Somalia? Nigeria? When you start to keep Canadians from leaving their country based on the immediate foreign policy of the current government then we are looking for real problems. It also appears to me that many here are not familiar with the new antiterrorist laws. A good summary can be found at: http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/8-things-to-know-about-the-new-anti-terrorism-bill-1.1413346 Edited January 11, 2015 by Big Guy Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Michael Hardner Posted January 11, 2015 Report Posted January 11, 2015 To Michael - "Intending to commit crime and plotting to commit crimes are chargeable offences" yes if they are done on Canada. Ok, so we're back to the question of sovereignty. My statement above assumed that the sovereignty question was settled. With regards to sovereignty, my point was made in another post: "we" arrest people in other countries and bring them homeside for trial (Afghanistan, Manuel Noriega) and charge them with committing crimes homeside and elsewhere (Manuel Noriega, Afghanistan). We also charge Canadians with having committed sex crimes overseas. This latest action is about charging Canadian citizens with intending to commit a crime in another jurisdiction. So of the jurisdictional distortions I mentioned, I find this one the least objectionable. And it seems to solidify the trend that "we" are the police of the world, that borders are worth less than they used to be. What if Putin names certain Canadians on their way to fight in Ukraine on the Kiev side? What if Kiev names certain Canadians on their way to fight in Ukraine for the rebels? What if we find certain Canadians planning to go to Israel to join the Jewish Defence League? What if we find certain Canadians on their way to Gaza to join Hamas? What about in Chechnya? Somalia? Nigeria? Are you asking me to guess what would happen ? There could a diplomatic dust-up but I don't know how many Canadians would get behind a mercenary/freedom-fighter. Israeli-Canadians can participate in political groups if they want to. The JDL operates out of the USA. Hamas is a political party. I really don't know what you're getting at here. Also, please note that I'm not defending the jurisdictional distortions I noted here, as I said above they are "objectionable". When you start to keep Canadians from leaving their country based on the immediate foreign policy of the current government then we are looking for real problems. You will never be able to solve that problem. The current government will likely differ from another government in defining armed groups as freedom fighters vs. terrorists. We will have the same problem when the Liberals get back into power. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
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