Education Over Expulsion At Dalhousie

[TimG]

They had the evidence.

This story shows that their was NO evidence that all 13 were involved. Those kind of attacks on innocent people are why it is immoral for people to participate in Internet lynch mobs.

If some want to claim they're not 'as guilty' as others, they can come forward and identify their posts and those of others.

No. The proper thing to do is for people to shut up and let the university review the facts and make a decision. After the decision is made the university should publish its reasons but even then it is unlikely that they will satisfy everyone since the lynch mob just wants vengeance whereas the university should trying find justice. Edited January 19, 2015 by TimG

[jacee]

This story shows that their was NO evidence that all 13 were involved. Those kind of attacks on innocent people are why it is immoral for people to participate in Internet lynch mobs.

No. The proper thing to do is for people to shut up and let the university review the facts and make a decision. After the decision is made the university should publish its reasons but even then it is unlikely that they will satisfy everyone since the lynch mob just wants vengeance whereas the university should trying find justice.

"This story" ? What story Tim? Did you actually finally read something about this case or are you still just pulling your 'impressions' out of your butt?

The proper thing for the 13 to do is to identify their own posts.

eta ... apparently only 12 now.

One has broken his silence:

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/nova-scotia/dalhousie-dentistry-student-breaks-silence-over-scandal-1.2917390

The university will never "publish" anything, citing 'confidentiality' and no obligation to do so. The student perps and victims will be required to sign a gag order. It's all about secrecy, protecting its 'brand', giving the appearance of justice while really just trying to shut the victims up.

.

Edited January 19, 2015 by jacee

[TimG]

"This story" ? What story Tim? Did you actually finally read something about this case or are you still just pulling your 'impressions' out of your butt?

I gave you the link. That is the story that shows that people demanding immediate expulsion for all are vindictive SOBs that should be ignored.

The proper thing for the 13 to do is to identify their own posts.

Sorry - the Internet mob may want to be judge, jury and executioner but that is not the way things are done in a civilized society. In a civilized society there are processes to follow and people are tasked with assessing the evidence and leveling appropriate penalties based on the harm done.

The university will never "publish" anything, citing 'confidentiality' and no obligation to do so. The student perps and victims will be required to sign a gag order.

Please explain why you or anyone else needs to know any names? The only you need to know is what the people involved thought of the process. If everyone involved is satisfied then you really have no business complaining. Edited January 19, 2015 by TimG

[jacee]

I gave you the link. That is the story that shows that people demanding immediate expulsion for all are vindictive SOBs that should be ignored.

Sorry - the Internet mob may want to be judge, jury and executioner but that is not the way things are done in a civilized society. In a civilized society there are processes to follow and people are tasked with assessing the evidence and leveling appropriate penalties based on the harm done.

Please explain why you or anyone else needs to know any names? The only you need to know is what the people involved thought of the process. If everyone involved is satisfied then you really have no business complaining.

I don't want a perp for a dentist.

But Ii'm not saying their names should be public, but the university should be investigating every one individually, not just throwing them all in a room with the victims.

If the 'gentlemen' aren't talking, aren't taking responsibility for their personal actions, then the university can only punish them as a group as they have by suspending all of them. The pressure may make some talk. So far one is. Kudos to Ryan Millet, who "tried to help the men understand why the (who would you like to hate f**k) post was wrong."

(Who the hell needs to be told why that was wrong!!!)

DENTISTRY STUDENT RYAN MILLET SPEAKS UP

http://herald.ca/novascotia/1263900-dentistry-student-facebook-post-was-%E2%80%98hateful-sexualized-violent-attack%E2%80%99

.

Edited January 19, 2015 by jacee

[TimG]

I don't want a perp for a dentist.

You may already have one. How would you know?

Kudos to Ryan Millet, who "tried to help the men understand why the (who would you like to hate f**k) post was wrong."

Yet until this story came out you wanted him expelled too. Contrite apologies would be more appropriate than kudos. This is an excellent example of why mob justice is not justice. Stuff like this is why process is important. Edited January 19, 2015 by TimG

[jacee]

You may already have one. How would you know?

Yet until this story came out you wanted him expelled too.

BS!

I never said that.

I wanted a real investigation to identify the real perp(s).

I want the perp(s) expelled.

Contrite apologies would be more appropriate than kudos. This is an excellent example of why mob justice is not justice. Stuff like this is why process is important.

Suspending all of them was the only possible course of action, to force them to turn in the real perp(s).

It's starting to work.

.

[Argus]

If the 'gentlemen' aren't talking, aren't taking responsibility for their personal actions, then the university can only punish them as a group as they have by suspending all of them.

That's illegal. You can't punish people for something they might have done. Even if they are only men.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Argus

[Argus]

Suspending all of them was the only possible course of action, to force them to turn in the real perp(s).

It's starting to work.

.

And around the world, every brutal dictator is holding up his hand in salute to that sort of thinking...

[Big Guy]

The repercussions are beginning;

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/male-dentistry-student-in-facebook-group-blew-whistle-lawyer-says-1.2195074

As more and more details come out it appears more and more like that facebook page that was hijacked by a couple of adolescent minded individuals. Collective punishment is not only ineffective it is illegal. I hope that everyone concerned gets justice and compensation if warranted.

[kimmy]

Gee. Some facts which show that the people demanding the immediate expulsion (and publication of names) of the 13 were reactionary buffoons: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/dalhousie-dentistry-student-blew-the-whistle-on-facebook-group-lawyer/article22514270/

Lynch mobs are bad things because the mob does not care about facts or evidence - the mob only wants vengeance for a perceived wrong and the mob will often punish the innocent. Due process is important. Innocent until proven guilty is important. Just say no to Internet lynch mobs.

I'm not sure why you're acting as if you've won something. The assumption was never that all 13 members of the group were equally involved. As I wrote over a week ago, the way the school has handled this has protected a few miscreants at the expense of everybody else.

Mr Millet isn't afraid of having his name public, because he didn't actually do anything wrong. He's going to court to protect himself not from an Internet lynch mob, but from the university's "process".

Instead, this process initiated by the university provides them all with a guarantee of anonymity and treats all 13 the same. All 13 had their clinical privileges suspended, all 13 will potentially face delays in their graduation as a result. All 13 are now attending classes separately. All 13 are equally guilty in the eyes of the public. And since we don't actually know which 13 guys are in the club, all male members of the Dalhousie class of 2015 will have this cloud hanging over them.

To me, this guarantee of anonymity seems like a really sweet deal for the worst offenders, and a raw deal for every other male student in the class.

-k

[kimmy]

The repercussions are beginning;

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/male-dentistry-student-in-facebook-group-blew-whistle-lawyer-says-1.2195074

As more and more details come out it appears more and more like that facebook page that was hijacked by a couple of adolescent minded individuals. Collective punishment is not only ineffective it is illegal. I hope that everyone concerned gets justice and compensation if warranted.

When you started the thread you declared that the university's response was "refreshing". I gather you've had a change of heart.

-k

[Big Guy]

I do not think that I have a change of heart but you may be correct. The point I was trying to make was that the "restorative justice" approach was a refreshing approach. Justice is the means of identifying those who did wrong and allowing the wronged to confront them. I hope they continue with the process. Already, any police action is no longer an option so no one is satisfied.

I was hoping a face to face discussion between the wrong doers and wronged (without the fear of incarceration) would clarify who did what, the personal consequences of the words to the posters/targets and allow everyone to go on with their lives. Since this was not a crime then whatever penalty imposed by the University would require much expensive investigation with following litigation. I am not sure just how far those directly involved want to go and how much of their lives they want to spend on this incident.

It seems to me that right now it is mostly outside organizations with their own agendas are using this to promote their own views and prepared to allow the participants (male and female) to suffer the long term consequences.

[TimG]

Mr Millet isn't afraid of having his name public, because he didn't actually do anything wrong. He's going to court to protect himself not from an Internet lynch mob, but from the university's "process".

All of the coverage of the university seemed to imply the university was showing great restraint by not giving into the lynch mob. Miller now says that they made no attempt to assess guilt before handing out suspensions which means that even the university did give into the lynch mobs by issuing the suspensions. This is not an indictment of the university but rather an indictment of a culture that expects to authorities to punish first - ask questions later. It also shows that you were wrong to call for the release of any names until the process is complete because even if Miller is willing to pay a lawyer to spin his side of the story, others could be just as innocent may not have the resources or inclination to launch a national media campaign. Edited January 20, 2015 by TimG

[jacee]

All the 13 have to do is identify (to the university) their own posts.

So far, other than Millet, they're all sacrificing themselves to protect the real perps.

Their choice.

Their consequences.

.

[Big Guy]

I believe our system is based on the principle that people are innocent until proven guilty. I perceive that what you are suggesting is that they are all guilty (of something) until they can prove themselves innocent.

Is that the principle you feel is fair to impose here.

[jacee]

The repercussions are beginning;

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/male-dentistry-student-in-facebook-group-blew-whistle-lawyer-says-1.2195074

As more and more details come out it appears more and more like that facebook page that was hijacked by a couple of adolescent minded individuals.

A couple of pervert perps would be more accurate.

A few adolescent minded sniggering idiots went along with it.

.

[Smallc]

There's no evidence of wha you keep alleging. I maintain that you don't understsnd male sexual desire.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Smallc

[jacee]

There's no evidence of wha you keep alleging.

Ryan Millet said somebody (perp(s)) posted the "hate f**k poll and 6 others (sniggering idiots) immediately voted on it.

I'm not going to repost the link just because you didn't read it.

I maintain that you don't understsnd male sexual desire.

Rape isn't about sex.

It's about violence.

.

Edited January 21, 2015 by jacee

[Argus]

Ryan Millet said somebody (perp(s)) posted the "hate f**k poll and 6 others (sniggering idiots) immediately voted on it.

I'm not going to repost the link just because you didn't read it.

Your continued use of the word 'perps' after you're aware the police have brushed off any idea this is illegal simply indicates just how ideologically involved you are.

Rape isn't about sex.

It's about violence.

That's pure dogma.

Bank robbery isn't about money, it's about... uh, money.

Of course rape is about sex!

[jacee]

Your continued use of the word 'perps' after you're aware the police have brushed off any idea this is illegal simply indicates just how ideologically involved you are.

That's pure dogma.

Bank robbery isn't about money, it's about... uh, money.

Of course rape is about sex!

How many rapists have you polled to form that opinion?

.

.

Edited January 22, 2015 by jacee

[Argus]

How many rapists have you polled to form that opinion?

.

.

Barring mental illness people rape those which sexually arouse them. This is not exactly a secret.

I'm sure there's some kind of emotional kick to physically dominating another person too, but to say it's not about sex is silly.

[RB]

At the University of Dalhousie, there is a group of about a dozen fourth year male students who created a Facebook page which contained sexually demeaning posts about women and specifically women in the program. ,,,

They were suspended yes?. I was disappointed that these kids lack judgement. It would have been a difficult one to deal with if folks in my PhD program did this explicit imaginings to our female cohort. We interact and meet all day.

[On Guard for Thee]

Barring mental illness people rape those which sexually arouse them. This is not exactly a secret.

I'm sure there's some kind of emotional kick to physically dominating another person too, but to say it's not about sex is silly.

Holy shit, that secret you speak of is one only shared by the mentally ill. Sane people cherish the people with whom they become intimate. Your comments are scary.

[WestCoastRunner]

Of course rape is about sex!

Unbelievable, the misunderstanding about rape:

The majority of convicted rapists assaulted for the emotion gratification they received from the violent act, not out of sexual frustration (Helen Lenskyj, “An Analysis of Violence Against Women: A Manual for Educators and Administrators,” Toronto: Ontario Institute for Studies in Education, 1992).

Rape is an act of violence; it involves asserting control over another person and taking their power from them. Rapists use a person’s sexuality against their will as a weapon. Rapists are not men who cannot control their sexual desires; rape is most often a premeditated crime.

[Smallc]

Unbelievable, the misunderstanding about rape:

The majority of convicted rapists assaulted for the emotion gratification they received from the violent act, ]

A violent act that happens to involve sexual activity. It's at least partly about sex.