Education Over Expulsion At Dalhousie

jacee · January 11, 2015

Yes, kinda.

:lol: I don't think so.

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Argus · January 11, 2015

I don't think so.

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Why would I care what you think about me?

January 11, 2015

Deleted

Edited January 11, 2015 by bcsapper

kimmy · January 11, 2015

You have no way to know if all 13 were active participants or just some of the them. Publicly naming them simply gives the lynch mob a target to persecute and the lynch mob would not care if someone actually wrote the offensive words or did nothing but join a FB group started by his friends. For that reason, they should NOT be named until the investigation is complete and the university can publish exactly what each individual did wrong.

If this had played out the way things do in nature, the screen-grabs would have just been dumped onto the internet so that everybody could see who posted what. Whenever some politician or corporation or whatever posts some kind of gaffe on social media, the first thing that happens is somebody takes screen-captures so they can't just delete it when controversy erupts. The second thing that happens is they post the screen-captures to an image hosting service. And the third thing that happens is that they post a link to the screen captures to a relevant social media website so that people who might be interested can examine it for themselves. That's how this stuff usually works.

If that had happened in this case, we would have the exact information. We'd know who said what, and which guys were active participants, and who made comments that were particularly offensive. It's likely that some in the group were instigators, and some were bystanders. Probably there's just a few in the group who deserve particular attention.

Instead, this process initiated by the university provides them all with a guarantee of anonymity and treats all 13 the same. All 13 had their clinical privileges suspended, all 13 will potentially face delays in their graduation as a result. All 13 are now attending classes separately. All 13 are equally guilty in the eyes of the public. And since we don't actually know which 13 guys are in the club, all male members of the Dalhousie class of 2015 will have this cloud hanging over them.

To me, this guarantee of anonymity seems like a really sweet deal for the worst offenders, and a raw deal for every other male student in the class.

You also missed the point about free speech: using threats to silence people harms free speech - whether threats are legal or not. There is no difference between a lynch mob demanding an immediate expulsion of the students with no hearing and the people who murdered the workers at Charlie Hebo. We have processes for a reason.

Free speech and consequence-free speech aren't the same thing.

Todd Akin has complete freedom to talk about "legitimate rape" as much as he wants, but he must accept the fact that every time he opens his mouth, he is shaping voters' opinion of him, and the results will affect his electoral chances. That's how it's supposed to work. That's "the marketplace of ideas" in action.

I can't understand what you're even complaining about here. You're upset that potential negative consequences for their future professional practices will have a chilling effect on dental students' ability to make offensive jokes? Ok, and?

-k

Smallc · January 11, 2015

Evolution is an amazing thing.

Nobody has to accept that as normal, and fewer and fewer such undesirables get a chance to procreate these days.

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I'm afraid that you're mistaken.

Bonam · January 11, 2015

Nobody has to accept that as normal, and fewer and fewer such undesirables get a chance to procreate these days.

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Cite? How many men with "perverted fantasies" are procreating vs those without said fantasies? Also, this statement implies that having perverted fantasies is a genetic factor and is thus hereditary... cite for that as well, please?

TimG · January 11, 2015

Free speech and consequence-free speech aren't the same thing.

Saying that speech has consequences is not the same as saying that others have the right to do whatever they please because someone said something they don't like. You seem to already concede that illegal acts are never a justified "consequence" of free speech. I am saying that legality is just one criteria and there are many other "consequences" which are not illegal but never-the-less unacceptable in a society that puts a value on free speech.

IMO, any "consequence" that imposes a punishment that is far worse than the alleged offense is unacceptable. i.e. it is not acceptable to throw somebody in jail for life because they steal a chocolate bar from a store. It is also not acceptable to destroy a person's career because they say some rude things in a forum they thought was private.

That said, you raised good points about codes of conduct and I do not oppose institutions that have those or who impose consequences on people who break them provided these codes are set out in advance and not made up on the fly. But these codes require processes that be followed and the punishments still must fit the "crime".

I don't think your call for the University to release the names has anything to do with fairness - it is really just based on the hope that the mob will exact vengeance (a bit like people calling for child molesters to be released into the general prison population in the hope that other prisoners will exact vengeance). Mobs are generally a very bad way to get justice.

Todd Akin has complete freedom to talk about "legitimate rape" as much as he wants, but he must accept the fact that every time he opens his mouth, he is shaping voters' opinion of him, and the results will affect his electoral chances.

Not voting for a politician is a legitimate response to his words. Teachers giving his kids failing grades at school is a legal but completely illegitimate response to his words. The latter is a kind of extortion/intimidation which undermines the "marketplace of ideas". Edited January 11, 2015 by TimG

Big Guy · January 11, 2015

I am a man of many, many years. I would never be so arrogant as to speak for other men or for how women think. I have found that there are no gender templates. I have also found that when anyone purports to speak for men they are speaking only their own views, their own perceptions and their private thoughts. Some on this board try to excuse their private feelings and wishes as a general male trait is an attempt to rationalize bizarre views and excuse some weird thinking. It does not work.

You speak for yourself and yourself only. Do not try to drag the rest of us into your questionable and tasteless views.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Big Guy

jacee · January 11, 2015

Cite? How many men with "perverted fantasies" are procreating vs those without said fantasies? Also, this statement implies that having perverted fantasies is a genetic factor and is thus hereditary... cite for that as well, please?

You didn't get that quote from me, I didn't say genetic either, and I don't care what fantasies people have.

But there's a steep learning curve for those who post their violent fantasies publicly attached to photos of women they know.

I'd say procreation just got a whole lot more difficult for them. :lol:

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jacee · January 11, 2015

It is also not acceptable to destroy a person's career because they say some rude things in a forum they thought was private.

They destroyed their own careers.

Any aspiring dentist who threatens a specific woman (picture posted) with chloroform and rape, wasn't very serious about being a dentist in the first place.

That kind of 'free speech' has predictable consequences.

And universities all have codes of conduct of which these students would have been quite aware.

I suppose those who support the idiots could offer their families as patients to them to help them out though.

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kimmy · January 11, 2015

I suppose it depends on the man. There are, as you're certainly aware, men with about as much empathy as a rabid dog. And there are men with the thick hide of a rhino. However, most guys I've known in life would have been horribly embarrassed if the subject of their sexual fantasies had become aware of them. I certainly would have, whether it was the girl at the bus stop or my friends girlfriend or a classmate my friend's mom!

Both yourself and Smallc have been offering the idea that these guys were discussing their sexual fantasies, but that's clearly not the context of these messages. I didn't just fall off the turnip-truck and I am well aware that there are men who are turned on by the idea of having their way with an incapacitated woman *cough*Cosby*cough* or doing violent and degrading things to someone during sex *cough*Ghomeshi*cough*. And there are forums where people share their darkest fantasies. The DDS 2015 Gentlemen's Club is not that forum.

The Halifax independent newspaper "The Coast" has screen-captures of some of the controversial content, with names redacted, and you can see the context.

The chloroform comments came in response to a picture of a girl in a bikini with a caption that said "Bang until stress is relieved or unconscious (girl)" which triggered the following exchange:

I suspect you're taking the word 'hate' too literally. I admit I wasn't previously that familiar with the term, but from what I've seen it's more along the lines of who is a bitch (or one you perceive to be) but hot who you'd just like to do hard and fast like Michael Douglas did Jeanne Tripplehorn in Basic Instinct.

I also suspect the other guys would simply have voted for whichever woman in the class they thought was most attractive.

According to The Coast, they had a different poll for which classmates they'd "sport f**k":

Early in December, one member of the "gentlemen" Facebook group created polls so the group could vote which of their classmates they most wanted to “hate fuck,” and which were best for “sport fucking.”

The Coast also says that female classmates were pictured and discussed frequently, and says that at least 7 female students were the focus of derogatory remarks.

Regarding the topic of how well received "restorative justice" was among the women who were targets of these posts:

After Florizone’s press conference last week, CBC reported that one of the women mentioned in the sexist posts objects to the informal resolution. Another woman contacted The Coast before this article was published. She is one of the women featured in derogatory posts on the group Facebook page. She wanted to emphasize that Dalhousie did not seek or receive her consent before electing to an informal restorative justice process, and she’s not comfortable proceeding with that process as it has been explained. As of right now, she’s not coming forward publicly or with a formal complaint because she’s concerned it will affect her academic standing and career.

Including her, we know of at least four women in Dalhousie’s graduating dentistry class who object to restorative justice. Yet again and again, the university has claimed its response has been focused on those most directly harmed.

Adolescents are not always good at empathy. But this discussion could have some positive impact. There is, in general, a vast disconnect between how young men and young women think of sex. I think most young men simply do not 'get' why women aren't all as slutty as they are themselves. To young men sex is sport and fun and pleasure, and they can do it with anyone attractive at the drop of a hat without knowing them, without respecting them, without caring a damn about them. It's not surprising that there's a huge failure to understand why women aren't the same way. If a guy found out a girl was having sexual fantasies about him then, presuming she wasn't hideous, he'd be delighted to let her bring those fantasies to life. Men are sluts. It's how we're raised. I don't think such a meeting will clue them in emotionally, but it should have some impact on their intellectual understanding, and perhaps more importantly, it could well relieve the women involved of much of their embarrassment over the thing. You can only be embarrassed about something for so long, after all, and once its confronted, and the men are confronted, that will hopefully fade.

Their contrition in words:

“Boys what are they going to do? honestly. Kick every guy out of 4th year? Tell us you guys are mean for saying those things? I think the bigger issue is who the fuck is showing the girls.”

“We should hang the leak from his balls. If he has balls.”

“Fuck an apology. All of this is fuckin ridiculous.”

You can just feel the remorse.

If I'd been one of the names on the "hate-f***" poll, I don't think embarrassment is quite what I'd be feeling. Perhaps the "sport-f***" girls were slightly more flattered, I dunno. From reading over some of the other posts The Coast has included, it's clear that this isn't a matter of awkward adolescent attraction, it's a matter of disrespect.

There's posts alleging female students are "damn honey pots" who try to flirt with instructors to gain an advantage. There's a post applauding the professor who has more sexual harassment complaints against him than any other, proclaiming "what a boss." There's posts complaining that the professor who showed the bikini-model video in class was made to apologize.

No, I don't believe it's a free speech issue. I don't think many do. I don't think any organization would or should allow people to say things about other members of that organization which would cause them distress. I understand why the university is involved. What I don't get is why so many outsiders are. This has been adopted as part of the gender wars, and another example of how cruel and misogynistic men are.

Personally, I think this is a backlash against institutions who've failed to take sexual harrassment seriously. That CBC basically covered up Ghomeshi's harassment of his female minions has really undermined peoples' faith. Not quite as recently, the RCMP. Several issues in the states involving cover-ups of sexual harassment at universities, particularly when prominent athletics programs are involved. People read about this stuff, and then they hear that Dalhousie has, in secret, been going through this wussy-sounding "restorative justice" process, and it sounds like another cover-up.

-k

Smallc · January 11, 2015

They destroyed their own careers.

Any aspiring dentist who threatens a specific woman (picture posted) with chloroform and rape, wasn't very serious about being a dentist in the first place.

You need to learn what a threat is before you go levelling accusations. What they did was in bad taste and improper, but it wasn't a threat.

Smallc · January 11, 2015

Both yourself and Smallc have been offering the idea that these guys were discussing their sexual fantasies, but that's clearly not the context of these messages. I didn't just fall off the turnip-truck and I am well aware that there are men who are turned on by the idea of having their way with an incapacitated woman *cough*Cosby*cough* or doing violent and degrading things to someone during sex *cough*Ghomeshi*cough*. And there are forums where people share their darkest fantasies. The DDS 2015 Gentlemen's Club is not that forum.

The Halifax independent newspaper "The Coast" has screen-captures of some of the controversial content, with names redacted, and you can see the context.

The chloroform comments came in response to a picture of a girl in a bikini with a caption that said "Bang until stress is relieved or unconscious (girl)" which triggered the following exchange:

No, fantasy (and by extension desire) clearly is the context of these messages. I've heard it from enough men to know what it is.

kimmy · January 11, 2015

IMO, any "consequence" that imposes a punishment that is far worse than the alleged offense is unacceptable. i.e. it is not acceptable to throw somebody in jail for life because they steal a chocolate bar from a store. It is also not acceptable to destroy a person's career because they say some rude things in a forum they thought was private.

That said, you raised good points about codes of conduct and I do not oppose institutions that have those or who impose consequences on people who break them provided these codes are set out in advance and not made up on the fly. But these codes require processes that be followed and the punishments still must fit the "crime".

Suspending these students from clinical practice is far from a "made up on the fly" consequence. Students are made fully aware that their clinical practice privileges are a *privilege* that can be revoked for any display of unprofessional behavior, even something as minor as chewing gum. The contents of the Facebook page raise plenty of question about the professionalism of these guys, and the university is completely justifiable in withholding clinical practice privileges until such time as they've been convinced that the issue has been addressed. That might mean something along the lines of a sensitivity training course or who knows what. It certainly sucks for them that they can't graduate until they finish their clinical practice requirements, and that they can't resume their clinical practice requirements until concerns about their professionalism have been addressed.

I don't think your call for the University to release the names has anything to do with fairness - it is really just based on the hope that the mob will exact vengeance

And I don't think you actually think there's any issue here at all. I think you're just biting your tongue and fighting the urge to tell me that you think this is all just a bunch of PC BS and that the people complaining should just shut up and deal with it.

(a bit like people calling for child molesters to be released into the general prison population in the hope that other prisoners will exact vengeance). Mobs are generally a very bad way to get justice.

I don't want the culprits to get anonymous death threats or harassing phone calls, if that's what you're saying.

I think that as a matter of fairness to the classmates, identifying the guilty ones would remove a cloud of suspicion from the rest of them. There are 26 men in the class, only 13 who belong to this group. What is going to be done for the rest of them?

And I think that as a consumer, if I am looking for a new dentist I should be able to go do some research and find out if a dentist has glaring issues in their history. When I was looking for a doctor and a dentist, I ran their names through Google a few times to see if there were any red flags. Bad reviews, disputes over billing, criminal charges... anything that might turn up. I don't think hiding this information is fair to prospective clients.

Not voting for a politician is a legitimate response to his words. Teachers giving his kids failing grades at school is a legal but completely illegitimate response to his words. The latter is a kind of extortion/intimidation which undermines the "marketplace of ideas".

Violating a student code of conduct could well put an early end to your academic career. Are codes of conduct just fascist? Should they be scrapped altogether?

-k

Argus · January 11, 2015

I'm afraid that you're mistaken.

No, no, I've heard that girls really fight it out to be the girlfriend of the math club president nowadays. None of them have any time for those big football player types at all!

Argus · January 11, 2015

I am a man of many, many years. I would never be so arrogant as to speak for other men or for how women think. I have found that there are no gender templates.

You couldn't find a hole in the ground if you fell into it face first. Of course there are templates. There always have been and always will be. Saying that doesn't mean there aren't variance from the mean, but there still is a mean.

And it's hilarious how you long ago, pompously announced I was on your ignore list but every time i post something you reply anyway.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Argus

jacee · January 11, 2015

You need to learn what a threat is before you go levelling accusations. What they did was in bad taste and improper, but it wasn't a threat.

You'd feel the same way if it was your picture posted next to that threat?

I'd feel threatened.

And I'd go to the police for them to determine whether laws were broken.

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TimG · January 11, 2015

That might mean something along the lines of a sensitivity training course or who knows what. It certainly sucks for them that they can't graduate until they finish their clinical practice requirements, and that they can't resume their clinical practice requirements until concerns about their professionalism have been addressed.

Exactly. This is an example of a proportionate response to the alleged offence. But such a response will not satisfy the mob who has decided that anything other than immediate expulsion is "letting them off easy".

And I don't think you actually think there's any issue here at all. I think you're just biting your tongue and fighting the urge to tell me that you think this is all just a bunch of PC BS and that the people complaining should just shut up and deal with it.

I agree that what was alleged to have been said is offensive and probably does violate the university's code of conduct. I am only arguing that the response of the University has been appropriate and they should follow a process. I happen to think the "restorative justice" panel is a bunch of PC nonsense because there does not appear to be any real victims (I am assuming the comments were generally directed against woman - if a individual woman was singled out for attack then she would have a case).

Appropriate punishment for me would be: public contrite apologies. suspension for those that actually wrote offensive posts until the current group of students graduates after which they would be allowed to pick up where they left off.

Violating a student code of conduct could well put an early end to your academic career. Are codes of conduct just fascist? Should they be scrapped altogether?

You are are arguing that the punishment for every crime should be life in prison. There needs to be a process where the culpability of each individual is assessed and different punishments given according to the seriousness of the offense. Edited January 11, 2015 by TimG

Smallc · January 11, 2015

No, no, I've heard that girls really fight it out to be the girlfriend of the math club president nowadays. None of them have any time for those big football player types at all!

As the guy that was the math club type, and was pretty much single until 24....yeah....

On Guard for Thee · January 11, 2015

I think my bottom line here is I don't believe I want anybody that stupid/insensitive drilling holes in my teeth.

TimG · January 11, 2015

I think my bottom line here is I don't believe I want anybody that stupid/insensitive drilling holes in my teeth.

And I would not want someone who believes she is a "victim" because somebody said offensive things about women on the internet drilling holes in my teeth.

jacee · January 12, 2015

I agree that what was alleged to have been said is offensive and probably does violate the university's code of conduct. I am only arguing that the response of the University has been appropriate and they should follow a process. I happen to think the "restorative justice" panel is a bunch of PC nonsense because there does not appear to be any real victims (I am assuming the comments were generally directed against woman - if a individual woman was singled out for attack then she would have a case).

Photos of female classmates were posted with the offensive comments.

You've been defending the creeps for pages, and you didn't even know that? :/

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Edited January 12, 2015 by jacee

TimG · January 12, 2015

Photos of female classmates were posted with the offensive comments.

That is what you claim. I will wait until I hear it from an authoritative source such as this panel which the university is convening.

On Guard for Thee · January 12, 2015

Photos of female classmates were posted with the offensive comments.

You've been defending the creeps for pages, and you didn't even know that? :/

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There are those who will hold out regardless of the evidence. Just the way the world goes round.

jacee · January 12, 2015

That is what you claim. I will wait until I hear it from an authoritative source such as this panel which the university is convening.

That's what I read in the news.

Perhaps in future you might consider reading the news about any issue under discussion, determining the facts for yourself, before forming an (erroneous) opinion.

Otherwise your posts aren't worth reading let alone responding to.

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