Rex Murphy - What Does it Mean to be Canadian?

[hitops]

Link?

They paid taxes on it here.

How/where we spend/send our money is nobody's business.

.

Not sure how those point respond to my post, or are relevant in any way.

[carepov]

It would be tough to design a system to help people less efficiently than foreign aid, which as you point out, is routinely counter-productive. If you need a source, try here:

http://www.aabri.com/manuscripts/09359.pdf

or here:

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/ForeignAid.html

The first source concludes that foreign aid has a "mixed impact" with as many positive outcomes as negative. If this is true, then it's simply a matter of learning from the types of foreign aid that work - and keep doing it; and what types don't work and stop or modify.

Here is an excellent source: http://annualletter.gatesfoundation.org/ that debunks the myths presented in the second source.

[Moonbox]

Perhaps the Scandinavian countries and places like Holland would be something to aspire to?

The reference to "Scandinavia" as this magical fantasy socialist utopia is getting old. These clichéd references not only grossly exaggerate the success of their systems, they also ignore a huge host of underlying advantages that they have over larger and more diverse nations like Canada or even Australia.

Canada should sign the UN Arms Trade Treaty (ATT).

That's just another toothless piece of paper that both the world's worst offenders and main producers aren't signing anyways.

No. But Rwanda (1994-2014) is a huge foreign aid success that can be used as a model for other countries.

What, specifically, was different about Rwanda? You don't think people have tried to replicate successful examples elsewhere? Fact is that no single country has the same problems, so certain methods may succeed in one place and fail miserably in the next. Realistically, outside money isn't going to turn things around in failed/failing states.

Knowing what we know in 2014, allowing or even encouraging bare-knuckled blows to the head is uncivilized.

Go eat more granola. The fact that you even brought this up in a question of Canadian pride/identity is ridiculous. While I think fighting in hockey is stupid and silly, these guys are willing participants and they're getting paid to do it. The risk is their own and if the league decides to ban it I wouldn't mind. It is not, however, something worth discussing here lol.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Moonbox

[carepov]

The reference to "Scandinavia" as this magical fantasy socialist utopia is getting old. These clichéd references not only grossly exaggerate the success of their systems, they also ignore a huge host of underlying advantages that they have over larger and more diverse nations like Canada or even Australia.

You misunderstood. The topic is Aboriginal child poverty in Canada. Are you proud of Canada's record in this realm? Don't you think that there may be ways for Canada to improve?

That's just another toothless piece of paper that both the world's worst offenders and main producers aren't signing anyways.

Are you are OK with shipping arms that will be used to violate human rights?

What, specifically, was different about Rwanda? You don't think people have tried to replicate successful examples elsewhere? Fact is that no single country has the same problems, so certain methods may succeed in one place and fail miserably in the next.

Exactly. Lots is different about Rwanda and every country is unique.

Realistically, outside money isn't going to turn things around in failed/failing states.

Can you spot the contradiction? On the one hand, we agree: every country is unique. On the other hand you say: foreign aid can't work anywhere.

You are wrong. Outside money did help turn things around in Rwanda and in many other places too.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/12/29/paul-farmers-graph-of-the-year-rwandas-plummeting-child-mortality-rate/

Go eat more granola. The fact that you even brought this up in a question of Canadian pride/identity is ridiculous. While I think fighting in hockey is stupid and silly, these guys are willing participants and they're getting paid to do it. The risk is their own and if the league decides to ban it I wouldn't mind. It is not, however, something worth discussing here lol.

If it is not worth discussing, then don't discuss it. If you had a 19 year-old son just drafted into the NHL would you feel the same way?

Edited October 28, 2014 by carepov

[jbg]

The reference to "Scandinavia" as this magical fantasy socialist utopia is getting old. These clichéd references not only grossly exaggerate the success of their systems, they also ignore a huge host of underlying advantages that they have over larger and more diverse nations like Canada or even Australia.

I meant to post this earlier, but someone should Google "Malmo, Sweden" and see what a hell-hole government welfare has made that place.

[Moonbox]

You misunderstood. The topic is Aboriginal child poverty in Canada. Are you proud of Canada's record in this realm? Don't you think that there may be ways for Canada to improve?

What am I not understanding? Scandinavia doesn't have an aboriginal people. That is one of the MANY challenges that it is not required to tackle.

Are you are OK with shipping arms that will be used to violate human rights?

I'm okay with it if it means that the people they're shipped to are fighting people who have even worse human rights records. It's a sort of "enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort of situation, and there are enough examples of this in history netting out on the positive that should have you thinking a little less black/white.

Can you spot the contradiction? On the one hand, we agree: every country is unique. On the other hand you say: foreign aid can't work anywhere.

You are wrong. Outside money did help turn things around in Rwanda and in many other places too.

I didn't say foreign aid can't work anywhere. I said it's mostly wasted when it's sent to a failed state. Rwanda came out of the genocide with a strong central authority and might as well have been a new country. A lot of the places that need aid the most, however, are the places where it'll be the least useful (ie. Somalia).

If it is not worth discussing, then don't discuss it. If you had a 19 year-old son just drafted into the NHL would you feel the same way?

If I was that worried about it, I wouldn't have signed my (non-existent) son up for rep hockey in the first place, especially not AAA rep hockey once body contact starts. As for what's worth discussing, I just think it was a really silly point on which to judge Canada's standing in the world.

[carepov]

What am I not understanding? Scandinavia doesn't have an aboriginal people. That is one of the MANY challenges that it is not required to tackle.

You are not understanding my position -I never claimed that Scandinavian countries wwere some utopian socialist paradise. My response was to jbg that asked "are there any countries without a significant underclass?"

I'm okay with it if it means that the people they're shipped to are fighting people who have even worse human rights records. It's a sort of "enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort of situation, and there are enough examples of this in history netting out on the positive that should have you thinking a little less black/white.

If it makes you feel better, you can continue to believe that Canada sell weapons to only the "good guys".

I didn't say foreign aid can't work anywhere. I said it's mostly wasted when it's sent to a failed state. Rwanda came out of the genocide with a strong central authority and might as well have been a new country. A lot of the places that need aid the most, however, are the places where it'll be the least useful (ie. Somalia).

Sorry, I mistakenly lumped you in with another poster.

If I was that worried about it, I wouldn't have signed my (non-existent) son up for rep hockey in the first place, especially not AAA rep hockey once body contact starts. As for what's worth discussing, I just think it was a really silly point on which to judge Canada's standing in the world.

I brought up fighting in hockey in response to "Canada, a land cold in climate, warm in contributions to humanity and the civilized world.". Canada would be more civilized if there were fewer bare-knuckled blows to the head in our national sport.

[jbg]

What am I not understanding? Scandinavia doesn't have an aboriginal people. That is one of the MANY challenges that it is not required to tackle.

They have Samis (formerly known as "Lapps") and Muslims.

[The_Squid]

What am I not understanding? Scandinavia doesn't have an aboriginal people.

Yes they do.

[bush_cheney2004]

ab·orig·i·nal

adjective \ˌa-bə-ˈrij-nəl, -ˈri-jə-n^əl\

: of or relating to the people and things that have been in a region from the earliest time

So why aren't native Scandinavians "aboriginal" ?

[The_Squid]

ab·orig·i·nal

adjective \ˌa-bə-ˈrij-nəl, -ˈri-jə-n^əl\

: of or relating to the people and things that have been in a region from the earliest time

So why aren't native Scandinavians "aboriginal" ?

Are you saying that the Sami aren't the indigenous people in Scandinavia?

There are over 370 million indigenous people in some 90 countries, living in all regions of the world. The Sami are the indigenous people living in the very north of Europe, in Sápmi, which stretches across the northern parts of Norway, Sweden, Finland and the Kola Peninsula. http://www.unric.org/en/indigenous-people/27307-the-sami-of-northern-europe--one-people-four-countries

[Moonbox]

You are not understanding my position -I never claimed that Scandinavian countries wwere some utopian socialist paradise. My response was to jbg that asked "are there any countries without a significant underclass?"

and your response was to bring up "Scandinavia". Maybe you were suggesting that they don't have a significant underclass(which they do)? Regardless, you mentioned the standard cliché that the Scandinavian model is the one the Western world should emulate.

If it makes you feel better, you can continue to believe that Canada sell weapons to only the "good guys".

I didn't say that they did, but I'd be willing to bet we're not selling them to Somali warlords.

I brought up fighting in hockey in response to "Canada, a land cold in climate, warm in contributions to humanity and the civilized world.". Canada would be more civilized if there were fewer bare-knuckled blows to the head in our national sport.

and I responded by saying this was a really silly gauge of how 'civilized' Canada is. Maybe we should follow Scandinavia's model instead:

http://www.theguardian.com/football/picture/2014/apr/01/footballviolence-photography

The Swedish football season began in tragedy when a Djurgarden fan died from his injuries after he was beaten up in Helsingborg.

[Moonbox]

They have Samis (formerly known as "Lapps") and Muslims.

Who aren't really any more "aboriginal" than the Norwegians, Finns or Swedes themselves. They're certainly a minority and they've certainly been discriminated against, but comparing them to Canadian aboriginals (and the treaties they signed with the Crown) is pretty far off.

[bush_cheney2004]

Are you saying that the Sami aren't the indigenous people in Scandinavia?

Quite to the contrary...I am simply applying the word's definition to Europeans in general, where there are many aboriginal groups. How the word is applied in Canada or Australia to affect domestic policy and control original inhabitants is an altogether different matter.

The same can be said of the word 'Francophone', which has a much broader context than Quebec and the "ROC".

Edited October 30, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[The_Squid]

Quite to the contrary...I am simply applying the word's definition to Europeans in general, where there are many aboriginal groups. How the word is applied in Canada or Australia to affect domestic policy and control original inhabitants is an altogether different matter.

The same can be said of the word 'Francophone', which has a much broader context than Quebec and the "ROC".

We weren't talking about Europeans in general, but about indigenous people and the claim that there are no indigenous people in Scandinavia.

[The_Squid]

Who aren't really any more "aboriginal" than the Norwegians, Finns or Swedes themselves. They're certainly a minority and they've certainly been discriminated against, but comparing them to Canadian aboriginals (and the treaties they signed with the Crown) is pretty far off.

Not true. They are the indigenous people of Scandinavia. How the politics works domestically (treaties, etc.) is besides the point. Your claim was that there were no "aboriginals" there when in fact there are.

Edited October 30, 2014 by The_Squid

[bush_cheney2004]

We weren't talking about Europeans in general, but about indigenous people and the claim that there are no indigenous people in Scandinavia.

Right...to which I opined that there most certainly are. My only purpose in doing so was to highlight and focus on the pervasive perspective of "aboriginals" and "indigenous people" on the part of those that do the conquering.

[Moonbox]

Not true. They are the indigenous people of Scandinavia. How the politics works domestically (treaties, etc.) is besides the point. Your claim was that there were no "aboriginals" there when in fact there are.

It is true. The Finno-Ugric (Lappish/Sami) and Norse (Norwegians/Swedes) were in Scandinavia when Europe was still speaking Latin. Both cultures developed alongside each other (fought and traded with each other) over probably ~2000 years. Calling the Sami aboriginal is about the same as calling the Welsh/Scots or the Sicilians "aboriginal" in the UK/Italy respectively.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Moonbox

[Topaz]

Let me say this....since the Harper government has come to power I think the world's view of Canada has changed, partly for the fact when Harper started telling other countries how to deal with the economic downturn, which lead Canada to lose a seat on the security council. Then again, I've been here a lot long than Harper, so I'll just reflect back on Canada...before Harper.

[Rocky Road]

Everyone lives in a philosophical grey area of good and bad, where we navigate this world the best we can, hoping to avoid catastrophe and calamity, but when they do arise, we connect to people who empathize and work to rebuild and find peace once more. The meaning of life, and whether it "works" with the existing system is a fragile debate...one where millions of lives hang in the balance, and millions more live in loved one's hearts as memories that hope for a world that is just and good.

[Moonbox]

Let me say this....since the Harper government has come to power I think the world's view of Canada has changed, partly for the fact when Harper started telling other countries how to deal with the economic downturn, which lead Canada to lose a seat on the security council.

You grossly overestimate how much attention the rest of the world actually pays to Canada, as well as how much Harper's foreign policy has affected the world's vague and ambivalent perception of us.

[carepov]

and your response was to bring up "Scandinavia". Maybe you were suggesting that they don't have a significant underclass(which they do)? Regardless, you mentioned the standard cliché that the Scandinavian model is the one the Western world should emulate.

I didn't say that they did, but I'd be willing to bet we're not selling them to Somali warlords.

and I responded by saying this was a really silly gauge of how 'civilized' Canada is. Maybe we should follow Scandinavia's model instead:

http://www.theguardian.com/football/picture/2014/apr/01/footballviolence-photography

The Swedish football season began in tragedy when a Djurgarden fan died from his injuries after he was beaten up in Helsingborg.

Just because less civilized behaviours take place in other countries does not excuse barbarism here.

[jbg]

Just because less civilized behaviours take place in other countries does not excuse barbarism here.

Which brings us back to the OP, which is about what makes Canada different and better than most of the world. When barbarism and savagery play out in Canada, Canadians react.

[Moonbox]

Just because less civilized behaviours take place in other countries does not excuse barbarism here.

I didn't say they did. You were the one suggesting we emulate the Scandinavians, but they certainly have their own 'demons'. If you have to bring hockey fighting into a discussion on Canada's relative measure of civilized/savage on the world stage, I'd have to say we're doing pretty well!

[carepov]

I didn't say they did. You were the one suggesting we emulate the Scandinavians, but they certainly have their own 'demons'. If you have to bring hockey fighting into a discussion on Canada's relative measure of civilized/savage on the world stage, I'd have to say we're doing pretty well!

As I said off the top - yes we are doing pretty well!

We are not perfect and therefore there is room for improvement, right? Do you agree that fewer children living in poverty would be an improvement?