WestCoastRunner Posted February 17, 2016 Report Posted February 17, 2016 It's not that easy. But yeah, If these women went to the police, (at the time), talked to a grief or guidance counsellor, avoided Ghomeshi, avoided talking to each other or a publicist...anything, it would possibly change my mind. We know he's a douche, but doing Karaoke to "hit me baby one more time", sending him flowers and stalking him does speak to a complicity between the parties. Don't you see what's happening? You are dictating how victims of violence should behave instead of the reality. This is the whole point of this discussion. Victims respond is very different ways to abuse. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
Hal 9000 Posted February 17, 2016 Report Posted February 17, 2016 Don't you see what's happening? You are dictating how victims of violence should behave instead of the reality. This is the whole point of this discussion. Victims respond is very different ways to abuse. I'm sure they do, but if they did just one thing that showed displeasure - then that would something. Instead, they all come off as merely jilted, angry women who are acting out of spite because he ditched them. I can't help the optics. I've know victims in my life and I gotta say, I've never ever heard of a sexual assault victim sending their abuser scantily clad photos and love letters in the hopes of getting them to admit something or to normalize a situation. Of course, I don't have stats, just life experience. Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
WestCoastRunner Posted February 17, 2016 Report Posted February 17, 2016 I'm sure they do, but if they did just one thing that showed displeasure - then that would something. Instead, they all come off as merely jilted, angry women who are acting out of spite because he ditched them. I can't help the optics. I've know victims in my life and I gotta say, I've never ever heard of a sexual assault victim sending their abuser scantily clad photos and love letters in the hopes of getting them to admit something or to normalize a situation. Of course, I don't have stats, just life experience. Exactly. Ghomeshi's lawyer is trying to normalize sexual assaults. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
On Guard for Thee Posted February 17, 2016 Report Posted February 17, 2016 The allegation itself is not evidence. Nor is the response to it, but it carries more weight in the overall scheme of things. Quote
The_Squid Posted February 17, 2016 Report Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) Nor is the response to it, but it carries more weight in the overall scheme of things. Yes, and so it should. Allegations must be proven. Makes sense, no? The burden of proof is on the Crown to show guilt, not the other way around. Edited February 17, 2016 by The_Squid Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted February 17, 2016 Report Posted February 17, 2016 Yes, and so it should. Allegations must be proven. Makes sense, no? The burden of proof is on the Crown to show guilt, not the other way around. Yes of course allegations must be proven. That has been around since we've had common law. In these types of cases, it has been way too easy to discredit complainants by pursuing the anal retentive concerns of the religious right who seem to have their heads up their arses about such things as chastiy etc. Quote
Hal 9000 Posted February 17, 2016 Report Posted February 17, 2016 Yes of course allegations must be proven. That has been around since we've had common law. In these types of cases, it has been way too easy to discredit complainants by pursuing the anal retentive concerns of the religious right who seem to have their heads up their arses about such things as chastiy etc. Interesting, yet random take on things. Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
Guest Posted February 17, 2016 Report Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) Yes of course allegations must be proven. That has been around since we've had common law. In these types of cases, it has been way too easy to discredit complainants by pursuing the anal retentive concerns of the religious right who seem to have their heads up their arses about such things as chastiy etc. Whenever I bring up the religious right who seem to have their heads up their arses about such things as chastity etc. I get accused of racism, bigotry and xenophobia. Edited February 17, 2016 by bcsapper Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted February 17, 2016 Report Posted February 17, 2016 Whenever I bring up the religious right who seem to have their heads up their arses about such things as chastiy etc. I get accused of racism, bigotry and xenophobia. Certain people can do nothing more than try to kill the messenger. Quote
cybercoma Posted February 17, 2016 Report Posted February 17, 2016 I think some posters are using this case/thread to bring up issues with how the justice system deals with violence against women in general. The miscarriage of justice in the Ghomeshi case would be a guilty verdict IMHO. Any handwringing about broader issues is thread drift and has no bearing on the Ghomeshi case. Ghomeshi's case is happening within the broader framework of the issues with the judicial system and victims of sexual violence, whether they're men, women, or any other gender identity. Quote
cybercoma Posted February 17, 2016 Report Posted February 17, 2016 Well, throw out some ideas and we'll discuss their merits or shortcomings.You don't seem to think there's a problem with the system, so what is there to discuss with you? Quote
cybercoma Posted February 17, 2016 Report Posted February 17, 2016 I see it differently, I think Ghomeshi chose a judge because a judge would be obliged to follow the rule of law, whereas a jury could potentially exhibit people who will vote guilty based on nothing but pure emotion. We're seeing that here. I know that there are at least 3 active posters in this thread who would return a guilty verdict.Making an awful lot of assumptions. Quote
cybercoma Posted February 17, 2016 Report Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) Correct. It is a given that behaviour of assault victims after the fact are to be treated as not relevant given the numerous studies on how victims engage with the perps. The judge knows this however the defence lawyer was playing up to the media with the general populations lack of knowledge on these issues. This could help the judge to bring forward a guilty verdict.Ive worked with judges. Don't kid yourself by thinking they're aware of the research in the social sciences about victims behaviours and sociological influences. They mostly aren't. Even if they want to, they often don't have the time to understand these things. The responsible ones will contact experts. Many don't. Edited February 17, 2016 by cybercoma Quote
cybercoma Posted February 17, 2016 Report Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) The allegation itself is not evidence. It is especially dubious when someone who makes the claim keeps a relationship going and emails the (alleged) perp about how much she cares for him and wants to be together again... I think he probably did these things... but probably doesn't cut it. If a woman says her husband raped her for many years, are her claims dubious because she stayed with him? Hell, can a husband rape his wife? There's many who argue he can't. Edited February 17, 2016 by cybercoma Quote
cybercoma Posted February 17, 2016 Report Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) Yes, and so it should. Allegations must be proven. Makes sense, no? The burden of proof is on the Crown to show guilt, not the other way around.70 women came out against Cosby. Does that speak louder than 1 person? Does that not make you stop,and go, "yeah, this guy is very likely a scumbag."Well, why does it take 70 people before it is taken seriously? Edited February 17, 2016 by cybercoma Quote
Hal 9000 Posted February 17, 2016 Report Posted February 17, 2016 You don't seem to think there's a problem with the system, so what is there to discuss with you? I'm not being facetious, i'm trying to see if you have ideas. I haven't said there are no problems with the system. It may not be the perfect system, but it's better than anyone else has come up with. Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
Guest Posted February 17, 2016 Report Posted February 17, 2016 70 women came out against Cosby. Does that speak louder than 1 person? Does that not make you stop,and go, "yeah, this guy is very likely a scumbag." Well, why does it take 70 people before it is taken seriously? Bill Cosby won't go to jail without a fair trial. Neither should Gomeshi.. Both are entitled to the same presumption of innocence that anyone else has, regardless of the alleged crime. It's a problem with our system that sometimes guilty people do not pay for their crimes. There are those who would say that is a reasonable price to pay to ensure that innocent people do not pay for crimes they did not commit. I'm not so sure, but no one asks me. Quote
TimG Posted February 17, 2016 Report Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) I'm not so sure, but no one asks me.I suspect you would change your mind pretty quickly if being in the wrong place at the wrong time made you a suspect in a crime you did not commit. The government has paid out millions in compensation to the wrongfully convicted and who know how many innocent people confessed to a crime they did not commit because the plea bargain was preferable to the risk of a trial. Edited February 17, 2016 by TimG Quote
Hal 9000 Posted February 17, 2016 Report Posted February 17, 2016 cyber - If you want to complain about the system, fair enough, but don't sit there and complain that we just do understand, while refusing to give other ideas. Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
Guest Posted February 17, 2016 Report Posted February 17, 2016 If a woman says her husband raped her for many years, are her claims dubious because she stayed with him? Hell, can a husband rape his wife? There's many who argue he can't. Anyone can rape anyone. In the case you mention, a defence lawyer would certainly have the right to ask why she stayed with him. It would be up to the Jury and/or Judge to decide on her claims. Quote
Guest Posted February 17, 2016 Report Posted February 17, 2016 I suspect you would change your mind pretty quickly if being in the wrong place at the wrong time made you a suspect in a crime you did not commit. The government has paid out millions in compensation to the wrongfully convicted and who know how many innocent people confessed to a crime they did not commit because the plea bargain was preferable to the risk of a trial. I'm sure I would, but then, personal experience does that. Quote
The_Squid Posted February 17, 2016 Report Posted February 17, 2016 70 women came out against Cosby. Does that speak louder than 1 person? Does that not make you stop,and go, "yeah, this guy is very likely a scumbag." Well, why does it take 70 people before it is taken seriously? I think Gomeshi probably did it too.... it just seems it can't be proven in court... Quote
msj Posted February 17, 2016 Report Posted February 17, 2016 I'm not so sure, but no one asks me. Going the other way, you may change your mind if a daughter or niece or sister was sexually assaulted..... Quote If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist) My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 17, 2016 Report Posted February 17, 2016 Going the other way, you may change your mind if a daughter or niece or sister was sexually assaulted..... ...so this only applies to females ? Ghomeshi would get more of a pass for assaulting males ? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
msj Posted February 17, 2016 Report Posted February 17, 2016 ...so this only applies to females ? It's okay for you to call me sexist. I won't report you . Quote If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist) My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx
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