Jump to content

China and Canada, Freedom Foes or Trade Friends


Recommended Posts

Yes for brand X or Brand Y.

But I'll just use the fact that more people in jail=less rights.

Did you know that people in China are free to join the communist party where they can vote on policy?

I guess you feel that not being allowed to vote on government policy= more freedom?

WWWTT

I think not being able to vote on gov policy =less freedom.

I think not being able to nominate who you vote for =less freedom.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 239
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Western style capitalism? Where corporations are allowed to rape consumers?

No sorry I have a different opinion from what I have seen there.

China is a socialist country where corporations are not allowed to charge whatever price.

It could be because competition there is greater, but I believe the government uses a heavy hand (for TV, phone, internet, banking) when setting charges and fees.

WWWTT

You must kidding. It's absolutely untrue competition is greater. There a few giant state-alligned companies that control everything and deliver terrible service. It's a monopoly or near-monopoly in every industry. Competition here is far greater in most industries, other than those with heavy government involved which are the worst (Air Canada, telecom).

It is far more expensive in Chain to obtain the same quality of goods as here. Recently China banned baby formula imports, stocking a huge black market exchange. Too many people were importing from Australia and Britain because the local Chinese company was directly responsible for dozens of infant deaths due to lead contamination in the formula. As that company started doing poorly because people don't really go much for dying infants, the government stepped in an banned imports. That's the Chinese business model. What about just buying from alternative companies within China?....well 'alternative' is the key word there, I'll leave it to youto figure out the problem with that. That's Chinese 'competitiveness'.

Edited by hitops
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think not being able to vote on gov policy =less freedom.

I think not being able to nominate who you vote for =less freedom.

When was the last time you voted on a budget bill?

Or when was the last time you were able to forward a bill at any level of government?

WWWTT

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When was the last time you voted on a budget bill?

Or when was the last time you were able to forward a bill at any level of government?

WWWTT

Probably the last time I was forced to become a communist to have any sort of vote.

We ELECT people to do those things. Governing by plebicite doesn't seem to work very well.

I wish the HK people every success in their search for democracy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You must kidding. It's absolutely untrue competition is greater. There a few giant state-alligned companies that control everything and deliver terrible service. It's a monopoly or near-monopoly in every industry. Competition here is far greater in most industries, other than those with heavy government involved which are the worst (Air Canada, telecom).

It is far more expensive in Chain to obtain the same quality of goods as here. Recently China banned baby formula imports, stocking a huge black market exchange, too many people were importing from Australia and Britain and the Chinese company, was directly responsible for dozens of infant deaths due to lead contamination in the formula, started doing poorly.

Then it must be stronger government regulations for the monopolies or near monopolies.

When I was last there Feb-March 2014, my wife's banking was way cheaper (free) and all telecommunications are a fraction of the cost.

Smaller businesses such as domestic restaurants massages clothing taxi are way cheaper and great service. Transportation (air train boat) service is great and very popular there too.

But western brand names are even more expensive than here!

WWWTT

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Probably the last time I was forced to become a communist to have any sort of vote.

We ELECT people to do those things. Governing by plebicite doesn't seem to work very well.

I wish the HK people every success in their search for democracy.

So I take it you never had the opportunity to do any of those things I mentioned.

WWWTT

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I take it you never had the opportunity to do any of those things I mentioned.

WWWTT

I explained how things work here. I personally don't have time to bother with presenting bills. That's why we elect people to do that. If we don't like what they do we vote them out. But you can do that with whatever party blows your hair back. I hope the HK people will eventually get their wish to be able to do the same.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The people of China have more freedom than you do in Canada!

WHY would the Chinese want less freedom under a western style democracy?

WWWTT

I showed this to my assistant today, shes an emigre from mainland China , her reply, at least the safe parts , was "theres a guy thats never been out of his backyard, thats about as dumb a thing as can be said."

You do need more education, a lot more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I showed this to my assistant today, shes an emigre from mainland China , her reply, at least the safe parts , was "theres a guy thats never been out of his backyard, thats about as dumb a thing as can be said."

You do need more education, a lot more.

Ni yao qu Zhongguo yi nian, erqie ni hui zhidao Zhongguoren shi hen gaoxing.

WWWTT

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link please!

I'm interested in reading that information you read to come to this conclusion.

WWWTT

There's no link, it's an opinion.

If you have reason to believe the cost of re-configuring much of their manufacturing to meet modern air quality standards wouldn't be passed on to consumers I'd like to hear it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I explained how things work here. I personally don't have time to bother with presenting bills. That's why we elect people to do that. If we don't like what they do we vote them out. But you can do that with whatever party blows your hair back. I hope the HK people will eventually get their wish to be able to do the same.

Didn't need your explanation of how things work here. Already am a member of the NDP and was an executive member at the riding association level. But thanks anyways :rolleyes:

Anyways, the protests don't seem to be spreading anywhere past Hong Kong.

You would think they would be protesting across the harbor to Macau. But no luck there hey.

WWWTT

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not saying that same industry adapt, I'm saying the economy as a whole will adapt. This means that some industry might suffer, and other industries might do better.

It is not the government's role to protect a business or business sector, nor is there any prosperous or major country on earth who's constitution confers that responsibility on government. Picking winners and losers, or ensuring continued winners is absolutely not the role of government, and only results in net loss for the country as a whole.

Free private enterprise is a risk, freedom to fail is a risk. It should remain so. There is no reason you and me taxpayer should be forced to be in any way involved in salvaging anybody else's failing business, no matter the reason it is failing. Because once we do, that opens the floodgates for anyone to get bailout out or be protected. Then we just lose flexibility in the system, become less nimble, less adaptable, and lose competitiveness overall.

If a business a Canada does poorly because China gets subsidies through currency manipulation, other businesses in Canada, at the same time, do better due to access to lower cost of goods from China for their business. The economy then adapts by shifting towards doing things that are helped by lower cost of materials or goods from China. We don't simply lose out in one sector, we also gain.

If you look at the article posted on our trade surplus, all of it is due to the export of non renewables. Renewables are in decline. This is not a recipe for long term success.

Why do you think it is OK for other countries to practice protectionism but not us? Why do you think only Canadian companies should bear the burden of protectionism?

Obviously both Canada AND China would gain even more if China removed barriers, but in the reality that they don't, imposing our own only makes the problem worse.

Worse for who? Certainly not China. they seem to be doing rather well with one sided trade practices.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anyways, the protests don't seem to be spreading anywhere past Hong Kong.

WWWTT

Thirty cities worldwide, ----> thats 30 for the unread masses.

London

New York

Boston

Singapore

Toronto

Calgary

San Fran

UC Berkley

....thats a few, certainly laughably more than anyone spouting non-sense of "don't seem to be spreading anywhere past Hong Kong"

Education.....epic fail.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thirty cities worldwide, ----> thats 30 for the unread masses.

London

New York

Boston

Singapore

Toronto

Calgary

San Fran

UC Berkley

....thats a few, certainly laughably more than anyone spouting non-sense of "don't seem to be spreading anywhere past Hong Kong"

Education.....epic fail.

Zhexie chengshi zai Zhongguo ma?

Ruguo waiguo de chengshi you kangyi, wo meiyou xingqu.

Ni hai bu hui shuo Hanyu, danshi wo zhi hui gen ni daying putonghua.

Ni feichen kexiao

:lol:

WWWTT

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When was the last time you voted on a budget bill?

Budget bills are confidence motions. Governments have been brought down on disagreements about the budget. When's the last time the Chinese government was brought down on a disagreement about the country's finances?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is not the government's role to protect a business or business sector, nor is there any prosperous or major country on earth who's constitution confers that responsibility on government.

Its the governments responsibility to regulate trade, and control the border and customs and immigration... in ever single prosperous country I know of. And I dont really see the sense in doing nothing when our economy is under attack from predatory trade practice (price fixing, price dumping, currency manipulation, etc)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If production is moving anywhere its going to a different third world country.

Thats not the trend we are seeing though. Manufacturing in Canada and the US which as been losing jobs to Asia for ten straight years is seeing that trend reverse.

The trend of companies relocating American manufacturing jobs to low-wage China has started to reverse, as shown by recent decisions by Apple Inc., General Electric Co, Caterpillar, DSM, General Motors and even Chinese electronics giant Lenovo to scale up operations here.

The bottom line: For the first time in decades, several key economic drivers have created a competitive advantage for the U.S. that will encourage corporate strategic decisions on capital allocation and acquisitions for generations to come.

http://www.businessinsider.com/manufacturing-jobs-returning-to-america-2013-2

From 2000 to 2009, America bled nearly six million manufacturing jobs, or a third of its industrial workforce, as companies shifted production overseas. But over the past two years, the country has seen the green shoots of manufacturing’s rebirth. Since 2011, the U.S. has added 550,000 new manufacturing jobs, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, marking the first positive news for the sector since 1997. The renaissance isn’t concentrated in any one industry or region. In the past year, companies as diverse as General Electric, Dow Chemical and Apple have opened or announced plans for new production facilities in places ranging from Pennsylvania to California. Google, which purchased Motorola’s handset division, is making its Moto X smartphone in a shuttered Nokia factory in Forth Worth, Texas. China’s Lenovo, the world’s second-largest PC manufacturer, plans to make ThinkPad laptops in North Carolina, while last month, Apple said it will build a factory in Mesa, Ariz.

Foxconn says its plans are largely driven by the fact that its customers, American tech darlings such as Apple and Hewlett-Packard, are under intense public pressure to reshore production in the aftermath of the financial crisis. “We are looking at doing more manufacturing in the U.S. because, in general, customers want more to be done there,” company spokesman Louis Woo told Bloomberg.

Wal-Mart has similarly jumped on the made-in-America bandwagon. Earlier this year, the company pledged to spend $50 billion over the next decade to source more domestic products, which it will sell under the banner Made Here. “Labour costs in Asia are rising. Oil and transportation costs are high and increasingly uncertain,” Wal-Mart U.S. CEO Bill Simon told a manufacturing conference in August. “The equation is changing.”

The US dollar is collapsing pretty quickly against the yuan and other Asian currencies, and more and more firms are planning to move production back over the next few years. In a study done of major US corporations 50 percent of the CEO's of 1billion dollar + companies are planning to start moving production back to the United States. 20% of them have already started projects to do so.

Like I said... eventually all this production will come back... its a matter of basic macro-economics. Trade liberalization is not the new world order some claim it is. Its a temporary trend... a flash in the pan... that was only possible because of a huge currency imbalance between the east and the west and a glut of cheap energy.

Within a decade or so the US will become Canadas source of inexpensive consumer goods. You are going to call me crazy over that statement but it IS going to happen...

Heres why...

Currency Valuation - Wages are rising rapidly in Asia, compared to the US. Canadas dollar is appreciating against the US but depreciating against the yuan making it harder to buy Chinese stuff and easier to buy American stuff.

Simple Logistics - Offshoring is wasteful and inneficient. Production in China often results in us shipping not only the raw materials but the energy they required to run factories from here to China, and then shipping the products back.

Energy - A massive glut of energy production in Canada and the US is holding energy prices in check or pushing them down. Natural gas in China now costs 400% more than natural gas in the United States.

Labor Costs - Labor costs in China and other Asian producers are skyrocketing. Labor costs in the US are stable or going down.

For instance, market research firm IHS found it costs Google slightly less to manufacture the Moto X smartphone in Texas than it does for Samsung to make its popular Galaxy S4 smartphone in Korea. By using standardized parts and manufacturing at home, IHS found Google was able to get its phones into customers’ hands in as little as four days, compared to weeks for overseas manufacturers. Meanwhile, with assembly wages at the Texas plant starting at just $9 an hour, labour accounts for a mere five per cent of the total cost of making the Moto X.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you look at the article posted on our trade surplus, all of it is due to the export of non renewables. Renewables are in decline. This is not a recipe for long term success.

Why do you think it is OK for other countries to practice protectionism but not us? Why do you think only Canadian companies should bear the burden of protectionism?

'OK' implies a moral quality. This is not a moral question, it's a question of how to respond to the fact that it's happening. Protectionism is bad choice, so when a foreign country does it, how to respond? The answer is not to impose your own protectionism, because you only hurt yourself, just as they hurt themselves doing it in the first place.

Worse for who? Certainly not China. they seem to be doing rather well with one sided trade practices.

China the leadership is doing well. China the average person is not. That's the big difference between us an them. By artificially lowering the currency they keep exports high, and export profits high, but effectively steal money from the population by keeping the value of their labor lower than it would naturally be. The dictators in China profit themselves and the national budget at the expense of the standard of living of the average Chinese.

China is highly protectionist, no question. But imposing equal protections won't help us, because when you protect an industry, that industry becomes noncompetitive without government. Government = you and me taxpayer. That means you and me taxpayer suffer a lower standard of living, because we are forced to effectively hand over a portion of our income to prop up a non-competitve industry or business. How? Because with the protected market, we cannot access cheaper foreign goods and are rather forced to buy more expensive local goods, leaving us less disposable income.

It's no different that saying we should ban dishwashers because that takes work away from a class that should be protected - people who wash dishes.

Edited by hitops
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its the governments responsibility to regulate trade, and control the border and customs and immigration... in ever single prosperous country I know of. And I dont really see the sense in doing nothing when our economy is under attack from predatory trade practice (price fixing, price dumping, currency manipulation, etc)

I do see the sense in doing nothing - because that is the leanest, easiest, cheapest and most effective way to respond.

We are not 'under attack'. The world economy is not zero sum. Cheap goods from China allow me to more easily access products that improve my efficiency, making me more locally productive in the Canadian economy. They allow me to achieve a better standard of living and keep more money in my pocket, which means I have more money left over to spend on the services and goods that provide my neighbor's job as well.

'Under attack' is completely based on your perspective. A more accurate, factual description would be that the world is changing. Digging our heels in and trying to make the future the same as the present, simply because it is the present, is short- sighted and foolish. Cars attacked the horse-drawn carriage industry, should we ban cars? The internet has undermined paper books and libraries, should we ban it? The world changes, and you can change with it or become sclerotic and irrelevant.

Chinese protectionist policies hurt Chinese citizens more than anyone else. Eventually Chinese citizens will take action and force their government to change. In the meantime we should not respond by hurting our own citizens in a misinformed and counter-productive exercise in tit-for-tat.

Edited by hitops
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the meantime we should not respond by hurting our own citizens in a misinformed and counter-productive exercise in tit-for-tat.

Whats hurting our citizens is allowing predatory trade practices to go unanswered. Trading with an entity thats engaged in currency manipulation or price fixing can damage entire industries, wipe out wealth, depress wages, etc. Allowing such manipulation to cause the flight of capital creates private and public debt.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do see the sense in doing nothing - because that is the leanest, easiest, cheapest and most effective way to respond.

We are not 'under attack'. The world economy is not zero sum. Cheap goods from China allow me to more easily access products that improve my efficiency, making me more locally productive in the Canadian economy. They allow me to achieve a better standard of living and keep more money in my pocket, which means I have more money left over to spend on the services and goods that provide my neighbor's job as well.

'Under attack' is completely based on your perspective. A more accurate, factual description would be that the world is changing. Digging our heels in and trying to make the future the same as the present, simply because it is the present, is short- sighted and foolish. Cars attacked the horse-drawn carriage industry, should we ban cars? The internet has undermined paper books and libraries, should we ban it? The world changes, and you can change with it or become sclerotic and irrelevant.

Chinese protectionist policies hurt Chinese citizens more than anyone else. Eventually Chinese citizens will take action and force their government to change. In the meantime we should not respond by hurting our own citizens in a misinformed and counter-productive exercise in tit-for-tat.

So we didn't need to trouble ourselves negotiating a free trade treaty with the US after all. We should have just dropped all our tariffs unilaterally and everything would have been rosy. Who knew.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Budget bills are confidence motions. Governments have been brought down on disagreements about the budget. When's the last time the Chinese government was brought down on a disagreement about the country's finances?

Why should the Chinese government collapse when they are working on their budgets and finances?

Judging from how well their economy is doing, and how well they're country is advancing, I don't believe their process of adopting, adapting and evolving is as flawed a most western nations.

WWWTT

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Tell a friend

    Love Repolitics.com - Political Discussion Forums? Tell a friend!
  • Member Statistics

    • Total Members
      10,712
    • Most Online
      1,403

    Newest Member
    nyralucas
    Joined
  • Recent Achievements

    • Jeary earned a badge
      One Month Later
    • Venandi went up a rank
      Apprentice
    • Gaétan earned a badge
      Very Popular
    • Dictatords earned a badge
      First Post
    • babetteteets earned a badge
      One Year In
  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...