Harper's Tough Talk on Defense and Russia is just empty words

[Argus]

We're resistant to change, we don't like boat-rocking and we're shocked and appalled by candid dialogue. That's why little/nothing gets done over long periods of time, and that's why people like Harper/Chretien etc can spend 10 years in office with little to show for it. The parties that maintain the status quo and have the most boring platform are generally the ones who win.

Then again, what alternative do we have? Look at the continuing support for Rob Ford. It's not because he was a good mayor. It's not because he has any particular ethics or is at all admirable in his character. I think Canadians long for a big, bold figure who will say what he's thinking, who will be 'real' as opposed to all the dull, bland, boring politicians whose every movement, every statement, even everything they wear is carefully calculated so as to enhance the image they're trying to present.

Nobody really knows much about today's political class because they're all characters in a play, and hide their own personal views and opinions so well. And yes, it's not entirely their fault. The media will jump on any politician who says anything the least bit controversial. Context be damned, if the media can play it into an example of a politician being heartless, racist, judgmental, sexist, stupid, or ignorant they'll certainly do so with great fanfare and delight, and not give a damn that this is very far from an accurate portrayal of the man/woman.

So off the cuff statements are gone. Revealing comments, gone. Everything is carefully scrutinized for flavours of controversy before it gets put before the media.

I liked the Reform party under Manning. Of course, the media just LOVED them. But what I liked and what they liked were the same. I liked that they were real people and would tell you what they thought. The media loved it that they could take any little off the cuff or poorly thought out statement or reply to a leading question and twist it into a breathless scandal.

[Moonbox]

Then again, what alternative do we have? Look at the continuing support for Rob Ford...I think Canadians long for a big, bold figure who will say what he's thinking, who will be 'real' as opposed to all the dull, bland, boring politicians whose every movement, every statement, even everything they wear is carefully calculated so as to enhance the image they're trying to present.

Sure, but an inflammatory, comically obese and lying crack-head is more than anyone can, or should, handle. His political career is over.

So off the cuff statements are gone. Revealing comments, gone. Everything is carefully scrutinized for flavours of controversy before it gets put before the media.

I've long maintained the opinion that this is all the electorate's fault. You can blame the media or the cowardice of politicians to take risk, but the buck stops at the voters who are too collectively too stupid/apathetic/ignorant to even make the attempt to reason out even basic political/economical messaging.

I liked the Reform party under Manning. Of course, the media just LOVED them. But what I liked and what they liked were the same. I liked that they were real people and would tell you what they thought. The media loved it that they could take any little off the cuff or poorly thought out statement or reply to a leading question and twist it into a breathless scandal.

The Reform Party, at its core, had some smart and reasonable ideas. Unfortunately, there were way too many religious Bubbas, and vocal antagonists for anyone to really trust them. Combine that with a platform that was too far from the mainstream and they were always doomed.

[Derek 2.0]

I'm still waiting to hear you back up your accusation that I'm on the fringes, or that my positions are 'extremist'. You seem to have forgotten my polite request there. I'm going to continue to issue it. Do please show me what 'extremist' positions I hold.

Did you issue a request earlier? As to your fringe views, that’s simple, fore if they were mainstream, one of the mainstream parties would adopt it…..like raising taxes to increase defense spending or requiring abortions of the disabled unborn to reduce healthcare costs…..

[Derek 2.0]

Bullshit. The enormous issues of leadership and responsibility have been clearly known for decades. The bureaucrats back in Ottawa, both the civilians and the ones with crowns on their shoulders are far more concerned with their little empires and their personal careers than with the well-being of the military. Recruitment is an unmitigated disaster. Procurement is a joke. The tooth to tail ratio is far too long. We have too many bureaucrats and not enough spear carriers, and far too many senior officers. And that's been the case for decades.

And NOTHING has been done to resolve or improve any of it. You sound like a bureaucrat making excuses.

I never discounted that, I saw it firsthand, but reductions in the various headquarters and procurement portfolios (namely the ones directly related to the Dirt Box) could certainly not be addressed during wartime…………It would be like a pro sports team replacing the coaching staff during the playoffs….

[Derek 2.0]

Problem with white papers is they only address short term and can be replaced with a newer verision on the next election....what needs to happen i think in my opinion is something needs to be placed in law, something that states min and max troops levels, and a long term plan for our military laid out and each party forced to follow that plan....I'm not even sure if that is possiable but every 4 years the plan changes then changes again once the new CDS takes over...

Agreed fully………..A bipartisan consensus between both the Liberals and Tories would have to be a prerequisite to planning any long-term roadmap for transformation……if it was desired to succeed…..Hopefully this is what we’ll have with the National Shipbuilding Program.

[Derek 2.0]

This is where we actually get to what Derek's statement actually means. When he says Canada is centrist and averse to extremist vitriol, he is certainly correct, but perhaps not in the way he intended. While as nation we're certainly anti-extremism and anti-vitriol, we're also anti-change and anti-honest talk. In aggregate, we're a nation of conservatives, and by the proper definition of conservative rather than the 'right-wing' meaning of the term today. We're resistant to change, we don't like boat-rocking and we're shocked and appalled by candid dialogue. That's why little/nothing gets done over long periods of time, and that's why people like Harper/Chretien etc can spend 10 years in office with little to show for it. The parties that maintain the status quo and have the most boring platform are generally the ones who win.

No, that was simpatico with my intent…….

[Derek 2.0]

There were 0 Americans (who decided to move to Canada) and were killed in that dirty little Vietnam "liberation".

How many Canadians worked in armament and explosives plants across the country producing the munitions dropped by Americans aircraft during the war? After surplus second war stock, Canada was the largest supplier of HE used in Vietnam……….I fail to see the point of your morale equivalency in this regard…

[eyeball]

Instead of actually learning what the Dairy Board actually does, the fabricated image of the struggling Mom & Pap dairy farmers gets imprinted in the mind of Canadians, making any discussion about dismantling it widely unpopular. It makes me want to puke.

Just about everyone I know is well aware they're being screwed over with the government's help on a wide range of products and services.

The only thing worse than incrementalism is the oft-repeated notion that Canadians are too stupid to understand or do anything about it. Maybe if Canadians had more than a pig's ear of a governing system to work with but...we all know how that goes too...

[waldo]

Or waldo works for the government and expects entitlements like that.

You working today waldo?

please, quit stalking me! By the by, some of your more recent posts have taken on a suspiciously different pattern/content that significantly diverts from your usual prattle... did you PMO short-pants guys mix up your MLW logins?

.

[Derek 2.0]

The only thing worse than incrementalism is the oft-repeated notion that Canadians are too stupid to understand or do anything about it. Maybe if Canadians had more than a pig's ear of a governing system to work with but...we all know how that goes too...

Have you considered the possibility that most Canadians are content or even pleased overall with our society/governance? Is it possible that your social circle is constructed of those that share a similar view as yourself, so as to lend the appearance of Canadians being of a similar mind?

I don’t discount the latter possibility has also afflicted my social circle, and I could be in the minority……but I doubt it……..I feel that if Canada was as bad as you describe, and the majority of Canadians felt this true, your prescribed change(s) would have come about long ago........despite our "governing system".

[eyeball]

I'm talking about townspeople in and outside my social circle that I've known for decades not to mention the hundreds and hundreds of complete strangers I've met and talked with over the years in the course of my job.

What prescribed changes? If you mean my prescription for cameras and microphones, I think a lot of Canadians would be pretty enthusiastic about the idea.

[Big Guy]

How many Canadians worked in armament and explosives plants across the country producing the munitions dropped by Americans aircraft during the war? After surplus second war stock, Canada was the largest supplier of HE used in Vietnam……….I fail to see the point of your morale equivalency in this regard…

No attempt at moral equivalency. The smart young Americans who saw that war for what it was and were not prepared to charge blindly into the jungle but instead went South lived to see that they were right. As to munitions, that's business. Better Canada get those contracts then Mexico, China, Korea etc

[Derek 2.0]

No attempt at moral equivalency. The smart young Americans who saw that war for what it was and were not prepared to charge blindly into the jungle but instead went South lived to see that they were right. As to munitions, that's business. Better Canada get those contracts then Mexico, China, Korea etc

Did they actually see the war for what it was……..or were they just yellow? Could the same be said of Canadians that fled to the United States at the onset of the First World War? What of Canadians that dodged the Second World War? Smart Canadians or just cowards?

[Derek 2.0]

I'm talking about townspeople in and outside my social circle that I've known for decades not to mention the hundreds and hundreds of complete strangers I've met and talked with over the years in the course of my job.

What prescribed changes? If you mean my prescription for cameras and microphones, I think a lot of Canadians would be pretty enthusiastic about the idea.

The changes that you allude to, but aren't brought forth, because of our governing system:

The only thing worse than incrementalism is the oft-repeated notion that Canadians are too stupid to understand or do anything about it. Maybe if Canadians had more than a pig's ear of a governing system to work with but...we all know how that goes too...

[Argus]

Did you issue a request earlier? As to your fringe views, that’s simple, fore if they were mainstream, one of the mainstream parties would adopt it…..like raising taxes to increase defense spending or requiring abortions of the disabled unborn to reduce healthcare costs…..

That's it? That's the best you can come up with? Wanting to properly fund the military makes me fringe? Is that your position Mister Conservative?

As for 'requiring abortions' that's just your inherent dishonesty frantically searching for something to back up your bullshit accusations since I never made any such suggestion.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Argus

[Derek 2.0]

That's it? That's the best you can come up with? Wanting to properly fund the military makes me fringe? Is that your position Mister Conservative?

No, there's a whole host of your "positions" that appear fringe.........I noticed you refrained from addressing your proposed final solution on the disabled.

[Argus]

Have you considered the possibility that most Canadians are content or even pleased overall with our society/governance?

Looked at the polls lately, Gollum?

[Argus]

No, there's a whole host of your "positions" that appear fringe.........I noticed you refrained from addressing your proposed final solution on the disabled.

I hadn't noticed it at first. I went back and addressed it, pointing out what a dishonest loser you are to invent positions I never took.

[Derek 2.0]

Looked at the polls lately, Gollum?

No, I put little stock in them........namely over a year out.

[Derek 2.0]

I hadn't noticed it at first. I went back and addressed it, pointing out what a dishonest loser you are to invent positions I never took.

You never suggested it? If I thought you were worth the effort, I'd revisit your manifestos.

[Argus]

You never suggested it? If I thought you were worth the effort, I'd revisit your manifestos.

Clearly you ascribe to the Joseph Goebbels school of political smearing. You're a credit to the Harper Conservatives and their desire for 'open political discourse'.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Argus

[Moonbox]

Just about everyone I know is well aware they're being screwed over with the government's help on a wide range of products and services.

The belief that the government is screwing people over is ubiquitous all over the world (except maybe North Korea). Unfortunately it's also a very arbitrary and unfocused belief. The majority of people complaining about politics might as well be complaining about bad weather for all of the energy they devote to understanding the topic.

The only thing worse than incrementalism is the oft-repeated notion that Canadians are too stupid to understand or do anything about it. Maybe if Canadians had more than a pig's ear of a governing system to work with but...we all know how that goes too...

That's circular logic eyeball. If the governing system is to blame then it should be changed. The only people who can force this change are Canadian voters, so the buck always has to stop there. The attitude that the 'system' is the problem is just an impotent excuse and a way to shift responsibility away from ourselves.

[Moonbox]

No, that was simpatico with my intent…….

Okay sorry Derek. I just usually roll my eyes when I hear people say Canada is 'centrist', because that's like saying, "Popular music is popular" or "The average Canadian likes the things that the average Canadian likes."

[Derek 2.0]

Okay sorry Derek. I just usually roll my eyes when I hear people say Canada is 'centrist', because that's like saying, "Popular music is popular" or "The average Canadian likes the things that the average Canadian likes."

Centrist…..mainstream…incrementalism…….same song different verses I suppose, none the less, Canada is largely all of the above.

[Moonbox]

Along with backwards, stagnant and overly cautious. Obviously you can't say those things in the news, however.