Ferguson unrest

On Guard for Thee · December 10, 2014

Shoulda....coulda...woulda....instead your country was too busy courting economic and geo-political favour with the U.S.

What were you voters thinking ? Oh, I know...something about lower prices in the U.S. !!

Nah, mostly about the exceedingly higher crime rates.

Argus · December 10, 2014

No one is saying we dont. Its the force issue that gets them into trouble. Not everything needs to be forced.

It does if there's resistance. That resistance has to be overcome one way or the other. Even if it's a matter of parking tickets. Eventually, the cops will take your car and put you in jail for parking in the wrong place, unless you pay your tickets.

Argus · December 10, 2014

So by your reckoning, if he was shot the examiner would be wrong in concluding the bullet hole through his heart killed him because he hadn't actually witnessed the shooting?

So you're backtracking now and no actual 'expert' ever said what they saw was definitely a choke hold?

I'm not disputing that his arm was across the man's neck and would have impeded his breathing to some degree, but clearly not enough of a degree for him to talk.

And I've heard that 'if he can talk, he can breath' thing too many times on too many occasions not to believe it's a belief given to all these guys during their training.

Argus · December 10, 2014

BD keeps pointing out that you do not even need to be doing anything wrong and bad things can happen. Even if you comply you can run the risk of getting shot by a cop.

And even if you're a careful driver you can be in an accident. Of course, if you're a drunk and on the wrong side of the road the odds are way worse...

Argus · December 10, 2014

Since when did enforcing the law require killing unarmed people committing misdemeanors?

Are you saying the police killed him on purpose?

Shady · December 10, 2014

Since when did enforcing the law require killing unarmed people committing misdemeanors?

The law doesn't require killing anyone for committing a misdemeanor. He was killed in the process of resisting arrest. Once again, the moral of the story is that if you break the law, and resist arrest, bad things can happen, even by accident. However, if you break the law and don't resist arrest, or don't do either, you'll be just fine.

#CommonSense

guyser · December 10, 2014

It does if there's resistance.

Ok, fair enough to some degree.

However, the resistance in some cases stems from the cops own behaviour.

Did Yatim resist? No, but he was killed. And why? Shut the doors, lock the streetcar, and the cops could sit down and have a smoke on the curb.

Whats the hurry? Sammy is not going anywhere. He want gettting off the damn streetcar. Does anyone care about the traffic? No, it was late at night. Anyone care about the streetcar? No, it could sit just fine where it was.

But the cops.....the cops had to have their authority respected RIGHT NOW. And thats why he is dead.

But not that case in particular is what I am talking about. In the New York case, whats the harm in waiting it out a bit? Maybe they couldnt for unseen reasons.

What I am trying to say is lots of police brass could get cops trained in other ways, the art of persuasion maybe, how to ratchet down emotions for both the cops and the public they serve. Leanr to wait things out. Its not like they dont have to wherewithall to do so. We see it hostage and barricade situations all the time. Sit down, talk....work it out. If after some reasonable time things are not coming to fruition, then its time to go in and use force.

That resistance has to be overcome one way or the other.

Yes, and other is what I am advocating for.

Even if it's a matter of parking tickets. Eventually, the cops will take your car and put you in jail for parking in the wrong place, unless you pay your tickets.

Bad choice for illustration. The cops dont do that, the Ministry suspends your plate renewal

On Guard for Thee · December 11, 2014

So you're backtracking now and no actual 'expert' ever said what they saw was definitely a choke hold?

I'm not disputing that his arm was across the man's neck and would have impeded his breathing to some degree, but clearly not enough of a degree for him to talk.

And I've heard that 'if he can talk, he can breath' thing too many times on too many occasions not to believe it's a belief given to all these guys during their training.

Apparently he's nbot talking any more is he?

On Guard for Thee · December 11, 2014

Are you saying the police killed him on purpose?

No, that would be murder. It was assessed only as a homicide. There's a difference.

On Guard for Thee · December 11, 2014

The law doesn't require killing anyone for committing a misdemeanor. He was killed in the process of resisting arrest. Once again, the moral of the story is that if you break the law, and resist arrest, bad things can happen, even by accident. However, if you break the law and don't resist arrest, or don't do either, you'll be just fine.

#CommonSense

He was killed while committing an apparent misdemeanor. There was no reason to arrest him. If you think you see resisting a needless arrest in that video all I can say is, the world is a better place that you are not a cop. Or are you?

WestCoastRunner · December 11, 2014

The law doesn't require killing anyone for committing a misdemeanor. He was killed in the process of resisting arrest. Once again, the moral of the story is that if you break the law, and resist arrest, bad things can happen, even by accident. However, if you break the law and don't resist arrest, or don't do either, you'll be just fine.

#CommonSense

The moral of the story is that cops should value human life over power tripping.

#valuehumanlife

WestCoastRunner · December 11, 2014

The moral of the story is that cops should value human life over power tripping.

#valuehumanlife

For the win!!

On Guard for Thee · December 11, 2014

The moral of the story is that cops should value human life over power tripping.

#valuehumanlife

I'll probably sound like a bit of a broken record, but I have to refer once again to Plato's comment that, those who seek power tend to be inherently unsuited to wield it. Maybe we have to identify reasonable people within our comunity and force them to be cops.

Edited December 11, 2014 by On Guard for Thee

WestCoastRunner · December 11, 2014

I'll probably sound like a bit of a broken record, but I have to refer once again to Plato's comment that, those who seek power tend to be inherently unsuited to wield it. Maybe we have to identify reasonable people within our comunity and force them to be cops.

I like that idea.

On Guard for Thee · December 11, 2014

I like that idea.

Well of course it would be a bit unwieldy given the number of police we typically need in a community, but, we do in our system give people the power to make laws that govern us by dent of our vote, so I wonder how we could achieve something similar to appoint the people who uphold those same law.

WestCoastRunner · December 11, 2014

Well of course it would be a bit unwieldy given the number of police we typically need in a community, but, we do in our system give people the power to make laws that govern us by dent of our vote, so I wonder how we could achieve something similar to appoint the people who uphold those same law.

You only need to take a look at the turn around with the vpd and dtes. It has been a struggle, no doubt about it, but since the pickton murders on his pig farm, the cops realized a greater need to listen to the folks in the neighbourhood. The result has been an increase in 'community policing'. I see no reason why this can't happen in other 'urban cities'.

On Guard for Thee · December 11, 2014

You only need to take a look at the turn around with the vpd and dtes. It has been a struggle, no doubt about it, but since the pickton murders on his pig farm, the cops realized a greater need to listen to the folks in the neighbourhood. The result has been an increase in 'community policing'. I see no reason why this can't happen in other 'urban cities'.

Yes indeedy. This is of course an over simplification but I recall when I was in about grade 7 or 8, an OPP officer came to our school and spent the better part of the morning with us. We got to get a ride in a police car. He showed us a movie, we got to ask all kinds of dumb questions, including one of mine was what if some bad guy grabbed you by your tie. His response was to instruct me to go ahead and do that, with some urging from him I did so and of course it was one of those clip on's that immediately gave way. The upshot of all that was that a bridge was crossed, a link was established. Perhaps more of that needs to happen.

bush_cheney2004 · December 11, 2014

Federal autopsy confirms local findings in the death of Michael Brown:

ST. LOUIS (AP) -- A federal autopsy in the Ferguson police shooting reached similar conclusions to those performed by local officials and a private examiner hired by 18-year-old Michael Brown's family, documents show.

...The Justice Department autopsy found that Brown died from multiple gunshot wounds and had severe head and chest injuries, though it noted that the chest injury might have been an exit wound from a shot that entered Brown's arm. The autopsy also found a minor gunshot wound to Brown's right hand was evidence of close range discharge of a firearm.

poochy · December 11, 2014

I suppose the answer is to repeal all of the laws that relate to misdemeanor crimes, there isn't much point in keeping them if the police are to throw up thier hands and walk away as soon as the subject of an arrest resfuses to be arrested, why wouldn't you resist? Choose to have some people hurt when resisting arrest, or choose to not have the police even bother, in which case the laws might as well not exist. Or if many other arrests and selling cigaretees isn't enough to enforce that particular law maybe the more enlightened among us need to outline to police at what just point they should enforce the laws that exist. I vote for the freedom that anarchy brings.

cybercoma · December 11, 2014

Cite? Try watching the entire video. It's over 15 minutes long. Yes, you're right about cops having responsibility etc. But as I've already stated, and is always the case. If you don't commit a crime, and resist arrest, you really don't have anything to worry about. Why is that so hard to grasp. Don't break the law, and don't resist arrest, and no chance of being harmed.

Good thing these guys aren't hostage negotiators, since according to your thinking any discussion that takes longer than a coffee break requires murder as an option.

cybercoma · December 11, 2014

This comment herin lies the problem. Without enforcement of the law, the civil society ceases to exist.

We learn something new about you every day, Shady. Here you're openly saying you only follow the laws because cops are there enforcing them. I had no idea you were such a sociopath.