GostHacked Posted December 5, 2014 Report Posted December 5, 2014 i think he was selling illegal cigarettes. The victims were the businesses that requested the police to remove him from infront of their stores. The police don't work for you or me. They work for the corporations and the elite. Quote
Shady Posted December 5, 2014 Report Posted December 5, 2014 (edited) The police don't work for you or me. They work for the corporations and the elite. Well, the small businesses that requested the police in regards to Mr. Garner definitely aren't corporations and the elite. Regardless, I disagree with your premise. Edited December 5, 2014 by Shady Quote
Argus Posted December 5, 2014 Report Posted December 5, 2014 The answer could well be if you're black and in the US you may get killed. And if you're white or Chinese or Hispanic that won't happen, right? I mean, a cop would never kill a white man? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted December 5, 2014 Report Posted December 5, 2014 You know more than the coroner do you? And everybody else it seems. So dream on. The coroner said the neck compression 'contributed' to his death. The man had asthma and heart problems. If he'd been healthy, from what I understand, what the police did would not have harmed him. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted December 5, 2014 Report Posted December 5, 2014 (edited) The 2 yr old's arms might not be long enough to get the right grips, but we train 4 yr olds to do it. Once they get the hold sunk in, yes, even a full grown adult is going to sleep within a couple of seconds. My daughter has been able to do it effectively since she was 8. She has choked out people literally twice her size. Why the hell do you teach children choke holds? In fact, why do you teach it to anyone? The NYPD banned them as too dangerous. Edited December 5, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
On Guard for Thee Posted December 5, 2014 Report Posted December 5, 2014 The coroner said the neck compression 'contributed' to his death. The man had asthma and heart problems. If he'd been healthy, from what I understand, what the police did would not have harmed him. What the police did to him is illegal and he died as a result. Unless of course you think it was just that his time on earth was up. Quote
Argus Posted December 5, 2014 Report Posted December 5, 2014 The chokehold was quite clear and that's against the law there. I had my doubts about the video, too. Clearly, the cops arm is around the guy's neck. What the video did not show is how much pressure was being applied. Clearly the grand jury heard evidence in addition to seeing the video. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted December 5, 2014 Report Posted December 5, 2014 (edited) You mean the coroner who ruled that there was no damage to Garner's throat? He died of positional asphyxia -- his chest and neck were compressed when the other police officers were kneeling on him trying to get him to stop resisting and let them put the cuffs on him, AFTER the hold around his head and shoulders had already been released. You recognize, I hope, that a person with asthma having difficulty breathing, whose complaints are ignored by police who jam their knees into his back and crush him underneath them, is going to find it difficult to not move around a little? I am persuaded there was no intent to harm him, but this was a very minor crime and his 'resistance' was similarly minor. Under the circumstances, repeated gasps of complaint that he can't breath ought to have been paid a lot more attention, especially given how many cops were around to tackle him again if he was let up. Edited December 5, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
guyser Posted December 5, 2014 Report Posted December 5, 2014 I had my doubts about the video, too. Clearly, the cops arm is around the guy's neck. And thats the problem if I understand this correctly Had they put him in a headlock......he'd be eating dinner at home tonight. Quote
Argus Posted December 5, 2014 Report Posted December 5, 2014 Is anyone now understanding that the police are not here for your or my protection? People don't generally join the police because they want to kill anyone, you know. Mostly they see themselves doing something heroic and exciting, and yes, defending the innocent is part of that. And they do that a hell of a lot more often than they mistakenly kill people. I do wish that they would go back to the more congenial approach police used to use before 'command voice' took over, and the thinking became that every perp needed to be thrown on the ground and have his head knelt on in order to be properly 'safe' for handcuffing. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
On Guard for Thee Posted December 5, 2014 Report Posted December 5, 2014 I see just now the parents of the 12 year old in Cleveland have filed a civil suit. As well, the father of Flint Farmer, another unarmed black shot by a white cop in Chicago has advised the parents of Brown to do the same. Farmer was awarded 4.1 million in his case. Maybe when citizens start having to reach into their pockets to settle these suits they will decide the money might be better spent on some upgraded training. And of course we now ha Quote
Argus Posted December 5, 2014 Report Posted December 5, 2014 Of course it's not so, but the current outrage actually is instructive - not about the facts, but about perceptions. And perceptions appear to be a big problem in Canada and the US. My perception is that if you don't break the law you're probably safe from being killed by the police. And if you do break the law, but do as the police tell you when confronted, you're again probably safe from being killed by police. 100 black men were killed by police last year. How many were killed by other black men? Thousands. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Black Dog Posted December 5, 2014 Author Report Posted December 5, 2014 My perception is that if you don't break the law you're probably safe from being killed by the police. And if you do break the law, but do as the police tell you when confronted, you're again probably safe from being killed by police. 100 black men were killed by police last year. How many were killed by other black men? Thousands. Those are completely unrelated factoids. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 5, 2014 Report Posted December 5, 2014 Not if you are one of the dead "black men". Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
On Guard for Thee Posted December 5, 2014 Report Posted December 5, 2014 They most certainly are. And if you want to get into that, thousands of white Americans were killed by thousands of other white Americans as well. I would think we could do better than ignoring actions of police by using some flippant comparison to what criminals do. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 5, 2014 Report Posted December 5, 2014 If the outrage is based on achieving "social justice" for dead "black men", then surely it must/should include more than just "white cops". Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Bryan Posted December 5, 2014 Report Posted December 5, 2014 Why the hell do you teach children choke holds? In fact, why do you teach it to anyone? The NYPD banned them as too dangerous. They are an important life skill for self-defense, and an effective submission to win jiu-jitsu tournaments. They are by far the least likely thing to cause anyone medical issues out of anything we teach and train. If the person being choked doesn't tap right away, they just go to sleep. They wake up a few seconds later, and they're fine. Tackling someone to the ground or using shoulder locks and similar arm restraints is far more likely to result in someone needing medical attention. Quote
Bryan Posted December 5, 2014 Report Posted December 5, 2014 You must be training at a McDojo if you're completely unaware that a chokehold can be used to squeeze the arteries in someone's neck to render them unconscious and doesn't have to damage the throat. You also must be training with people who aren't fighting back because you can get someone in a chokehold and struggle with them to get it sunk in. Even then they'll have a few seconds to tap. Your so-called expertise is hilarious here. As usual, your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired. I'm very aware of the difference between blood and air chokes, and that is precisely the point. If Garner's arteries were being squeezed, he would have already been unconscious. He would not have continued to shout "I can't breathe" 11 times after the hold was released. If a choke hold had been severe enough to cause someone to die long after the hold was released, it would have to have been an air choke, which would be evident in the damage to the trachea -- which the autopsy did NOT find. Yeah, the people are fighting back, it's full 100% resistance when we spar and compete. Yes, it IS difficult to choke someone. Even when it looks like you do have a choke applied, most of the time you don't. They way you can tell the person is being choked is they will be sleeping inside of a couple of seconds if you don't let go. I'm sure that Royler Gracie is going to get a chuckle out of hearing that an anonymous keyboard warrior thinks he's running a McDojo though. That is a good one. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted December 5, 2014 Report Posted December 5, 2014 This is craziness. Have you ever heard of "transient ischemic attack"? It's what you are causing when you choke someone out and it's essentially a stroke. Yes people often do recover quickly and seem fine, but a bit of bad luck and the outcome could be very different. It's the reason for instance the NYPD outlawed the chokehold years ago. It is only allowable if an officers life is threatened. I don't see that in the Garner video or anything even close to it. Quote
Shady Posted December 6, 2014 Report Posted December 6, 2014 This is craziness. Have you ever heard of "transient ischemic attack"? It's what you are causing when you choke someone out and it's essentially a stroke. Yes people often do recover quickly and seem fine, but a bit of bad luck and the outcome could be very different. It's the reason for instance the NYPD outlawed the chokehold years ago. It is only allowable if an officers life is threatened. I don't see that in the Garner video or anything even close to it. The choke is against police policy, but it's not illegal. Quote
Shady Posted December 6, 2014 Report Posted December 6, 2014 And thats the problem if I understand this correctly Had they put him in a headlock......he'd be eating dinner at home tonight. He also be eating dinner at home if he chose not to participate in illegal activity or resisting arrest. Quote
cybercoma Posted December 6, 2014 Report Posted December 6, 2014 And if you're white or Chinese or Hispanic that won't happen, right? I mean, a cop would never kill a white man? Who said "won't"? Quit being so damn intellectually dishonest. The statistics have been posted that show that it's not like it "won't happen" to those people, but it's several times less likely to happen. Quote
cybercoma Posted December 6, 2014 Report Posted December 6, 2014 As usual, your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired. I'm very aware of the difference between blood and air chokes, and that is precisely the point. If Garner's arteries were being squeezed, he would have already been unconscious. He would not have continued to shout "I can't breathe" 11 times after the hold was released. If a choke hold had been severe enough to cause someone to die long after the hold was released, it would have to have been an air choke, which would be evident in the damage to the trachea -- which the autopsy did NOT find. Yeah, the people are fighting back, it's full 100% resistance when we spar and compete. Yes, it IS difficult to choke someone. Even when it looks like you do have a choke applied, most of the time you don't. They way you can tell the person is being choked is they will be sleeping inside of a couple of seconds if you don't let go. I'm sure that Royler Gracie is going to get a chuckle out of hearing that an anonymous keyboard warrior thinks he's running a McDojo though. That is a good one. Well, I'm glad you understand the mechanics then. Maybe use some of that critical thinking to piece things together. You can still "apply a choke" and injure someone without it being sunk in. You recognize that here. Now apply it to the case. It's still called a choke. If it makes you sleep better tonight, go ahead and think "attempted choke" anytime someone says "the cop choked him." Because if you're as well trained as you say you are, then you know that an attempted submission can be as dangerous if not more dangerous than a well executed one. Quote
cybercoma Posted December 6, 2014 Report Posted December 6, 2014 The choke is against police policy, but it's not illegal. Really, Shady? It's not illegal to choke someone? If it's against police policy for them to use this particular choke, then it's aggravated assault because the officer used physical force causing bodily harm that he was not sanctioned to use. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted December 6, 2014 Report Posted December 6, 2014 Sorry Shady, it is in fact illegal. Has been since 2010. Quote
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