Ferguson unrest

[Shady]

It's not an issue if your understanding of race being an issue is the same as scribblet's. Then no. But that just shows a misunderstanding on your part and probably a miscommunication on others' parts about what the race issue is here.

Whatever helps you cope better. But race has nothing to do with somebody assulting an officer, and attempting to retrieve his gun. None whatsoever. Keep pretending though. There seems to be lots of pretending going on here. I think it's time for you people to accept the grand jury, and the majority of the evidence and move on.

[Black Dog]

can be a factor with some. But not all. In this case, I don't see race as being an issue. What mattered more was Brown's deplorable actions. You don't commit robbery, you don't disobey police, you don't assult an officer in his vehicle, you don't attempt to retrieve his gun, and you don't run at him after all of that. It's pretty basic stuff, all logical. But for some people, it's much easier to process everything via race instead. Less critical thinking to do.

There's a myriad ways race was a factor in this case, as it is in a myriad other interactions between black and whites each and every day, in the same way race is a factor in why people live where they do, act like they do and so on and so forth. But you are simply too ill-informed, too ignorant, too lacking in basic critical thinking skills to even understand the concept. I've literally encountered scented candles that are smarter than you and here you actually have the nerve to talk about logic? The mind reels.

[cybercoma]

I find that some of you try so hard to find racism in everything. From all accounts, this wasn't racism. Keep looking though.

It most certainly has to do with institutional racism. Go ahead and bury your head in the sand on this one like everything else to do with race and gender though.

[Black Dog]

I find that some of you try so hard to find racism in everything. From all accounts, this wasn't racism. Keep looking though.

Here's another one who doesn't understand that racism ain't just about individual prejudice.

[cybercoma]

Whatever helps you cope better. But race has nothing to do with somebody assulting an officer, and attempting to retrieve his gun. None whatsoever. Keep pretending though. There seems to be lots of pretending going on here. I think it's time for you people to accept the grand jury, and the majority of the evidence and move on.

Like I said to scribblet, you can't boil everything down to microsocial interpersonal interactions. You should take the time to understand what institutional and structural racism are and how they affect people's lives.

[Shady]

Like I said to scribblet, you can't boil everything down to microsocial interpersonal interactions. You should take the time to understand what institutional and structural racism are and how they affect people's lives.

Ok. That still doesn't mean that assualting a police officer and attempting to retrieve their gun won't lead to deadly consequences.

[Black Dog]

Ok. That still doesn't mean that assualting a police officer and attempting to retrieve their gun won't lead to deadly consequences.

Who said otherwise? Seriously: who?

[Argus]

The problem is if he was white, the cops would have never shot him and his shoplifting would have been painted as a "transgression" or "mistake" by a teenager trying to find his identity.

Are you actually suggesting that Wilson would have reacted differently if a 300lb 6 foot 4 White guy had started punching him in the face and grabbed at his gun!? Really!?

"Well, I was going to shoot, but then I noticed he had white skin, so I decided that I'd just give him my gun because I knew no white man would use it unlawfully anyway."

In fact, if the evidence shows one thing in absolute clarity it's that race had nothing to do with the outcome here.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Argus

[Argus]

You're really having troubles connecting the dots before typing up your tired indignation, eh?

I'm sorry if my pointing out reality is making it more difficult for you to keep the self-righteousness flowing in your insulated little world.

[Argus]

I think officer Wilson is screwed when it comes to policing regardless of any guilt. There is a problem when a majority of a town's population is represented by less than 10% of its police force but that doesn't make Wilson guilty of murder.

If you read something on the demographics of Ferguson, they have hanged hugely over the past ten and twenty years. It was two thirds white twenty odd years ago.

[Argus]

What's unfortunate is that the parents of Michael Brown are subjected to comments like 'the death of a troubled youth'. As far as I can tell, Michael Brown was a graduate of a college, and was experimenting with rap music, including writing his own lyrics. Is there any indication that he was a troubled youth? He seemed to me to be just like any other teenager grappling with teenage angst (regardless of his size).

Maybe the fact he liked to throw his weight around and rob stores could be described as 'troubled'.

[Argus]

Bob McCulloch had no intention of seeking charges. He did not recommend any charges and he basically pulled the puppet strings on this grand jury inquiry.

You're probably right. What you're not demonstrating is that his lack of interest in pursuing charges was because there was virtually on chance of getting a conviction given he evidence in the case. I doubt he would, in the normal course of events, have even gone to a grand jury with this.

Juries, in both the US and Canada, are very reluctant to convict police when there's ample evidence the person they hurt or killed was a violent felon.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Argus

[Argus]

It doesn't depend on the action of others. This decision affects all minority citizens across the rest of the country.

But mostly those who decide to attack the police and try to tear their guns away...

[Argus]

This thread is too focused on left and right individuals and not on people simply seeking the right for equal justice.

I haven't seen a shred of evidence which suggests Michael Brown would have gotten any different treatment if he was White, Asian, Hispanic or Martian.

[Argus]

This is exactly what I mean. "some of you". We have protestors across the U.S. tonight that no one can ignore. Does that give you any indication at all that something is seriously wrong with the decision of the grand jury?

Nope. It suggests there are a lot of people who go for popular media crusades, or even internet memes, and who were drawn in by the initial statement by Brown's fellow hood that he had his hands up and was surrendering. They see it as a racial thing when in fact, there's no evidence race affected the situation. Maybe Brown wouldn't have punched out a Black cop and tried to take his gun away, but I think he likely would have. Or do people think a Black or Hispanic cop would have been more tolerant in that situation?

[Argus]

Anyway, I chimed in on this thread. I'm done. It was fun! I can't debate anymore with such narrow minded souls.

You mean people who actually base their judgement on the demonstrated facts?

[Argus]

Wrestling with these issues means to open your mind to why we have protestors.

Because not everyone can reach even average intelligence levels.

[Argus]

That doesn't mean he was "charging." The eyewitness accounts varied on that score and that's entirely what the case hinges upon. I find the notion that a guy who had been fleeing, having already been shot, would suddenly turn charge into a hail of bullets to not be credible. The whole scenario plays out like a KKK fantasy of a mindless rampaging superhuman Negro.

And yet the evidence says otherwise. First, he wasn't shot in the back. The coroner was clear on that. All the witnesses agree he ran away initially, yet aside from damage to his hand which came from the shot inside the car, all the wounds were to the front of his body. Further, there was blood on the road 25 meters beyond where he fell, which conclusively shows he was coming back.

[Smallc]

Here's another one who doesn't understand that racism ain't just about individual prejudice.

Here's another one who doesn't understsnd that not everything is about racism.

[Argus]

No one said that. He shot Brown out of fear. He was more afraid of Brown than he would have been of a white person in the same situation because there is a culture of fear built around young black men.

You mean cause he might think that since Brown was a black man he might, you know, get violent or something?

[GostHacked]

I think it is the racism used as a psychological tool. Whatever is happening here had nothing to do with racism as this kind of thing probably happens more often than we think. But you have people on both sides trying to infuriate the people and making them think it is a black/white racism thing.

The focus should be on the reaction on guys like Sharpton who never missed a chance to talk about racism against the black man. If it was a black cop who shot Brown we might not even be hearing of this. Same if it was a white 'perp' and a white cop.

The media is not helping by sensationalizing every little detail. The protesters are not helping by looting and burning down local businesses. If you want to burn stuff down, go for the police station or a bank maybe. Still won't solve the issue.

If you want to give the authorities a good reason to put in a police state martial law type of thing, keep buying into the racism crap the same authorities are pushing out.

[Black Dog]

And yet the evidence says otherwise. First, he wasn't shot in the back. The coroner was clear on that. All the witnesses agree he ran away initially, yet aside from damage to his hand which came from the shot inside the car, all the wounds were to the front of his body. Further, there was blood on the road 25 meters beyond where he fell, which conclusively shows he was coming back.

Moving towards ≠ "charging"

Edited November 26, 2014 by Black Dog

[Black Dog]

Here's another one who doesn't understsnd that not everything is about racism.

Not everything is about racism but, in the States at least, just about everything is about race. Especially when you're talking about a white cop on a white police force shooting a black man in a black neighbourhood.

[BubberMiley]

But mostly those who decide to attack the police and try to tear their guns away...

I haven't been following this story very much, so I'm unclear on the details. How far away from the cop was Brown when he was shot?

[Argus]

Like I said to scribblet, you can't boil everything down to microsocial interpersonal interactions. You should take the time to understand what institutional and structural racism are and how they affect people's lives.

Perhaps you could demonstrate in what way that influenced what happened on that street? Would the cop not have told him and his buddy to stop walking in the middle of the road if they were White? Would he not have gone back after recognizing that Brown fit the description of the guy who had just done the strongarm robbery at the corner store?

If race impacted this at all I think it was in the initial interaction between them when Wilson backed up and blocked the road. Honestly, my perception of Brown from watching that video and hearing his actions described was of a big, arrogant guy who thought he could do whatever he wanted because of his size. I can see him being angry when the cop first told him to get out of the street as he passed by (he didn't) and then stopped, backed up and blocked his path. There are strong elements of machismo in the Black community, of guys being willing to fight and kill because they feel someone is 'disrespecting' them. Add in a strong undercurrent of not liking white people, especially white cops, and racism might have been in play - Brown's racism.