Ferguson unrest

Michael Hardner · December 27, 2014

It can be also said that the people using the label "racism" when people quote such statistics are doing so only to stifle debate and ensure that only their "facts" are considered when implementing policy.

I think both sides of such an exchange are making presumptions that may not be true: the accuser assumes that the facts are being submitted out of context to convince others of a racist causative theory. And the defender assumes that the accuser doesn't want to know the facts.

This, in turn, ensures that any policy actions will likely be ineffective since they are not to connected to reality.

Policy actions need to be connected to an open and respectful debate, I agree. However, we need to set the stage for discussion properly.

Seems to me that the addressing the real problems that exists requires honesty from both sides the debate.

I agree. A discussion needs to happen between individuals who are open to listen and understand. The common mode of discussion that people are familiar with doesn't allow for such an exchange, so they don't know how to discuss things openly.

The facts can only show us the symptoms of the problem. The solution has to come from human beings on all sides of the questions posed.

Keepitsimple · December 28, 2014

It can be also said that the people using the label "racism" when people quote such statistics are doing so only to stifle debate and ensure that only their "facts" are considered when implementing policy. This, in turn, ensures that any policy actions will likely be ineffective since they are not to connected to reality.

Seems to me that the addressing the real problems that exist requires honesty from both sides the debate.

And real problems begin with real facts. Every year in the US, there are 7000 black homicides - 95% of which are perpetrated by other black Americans. That represents 50% of all homicides - even though blacks represent less than 15% of the population. It's time for the media to get off the Liberal "white guilt" soapbox and start dealing with these facts. Blacks are over-represented in the criminal justice system not because they are black, they are not over-represented in run-ins with police because they are black.....they are over-represented because they are more likely to be involved in criminal activity. As to why that is the case can be argued until the cows come home - but facts are facts and its more than time to deal with it.

GostHacked · December 28, 2014

The difference is that in most of the cases where the single parent is good, they've had good upbringings themselves and have a support system. The typical black single welfare mother of two at age 18, not so much.

I've seen plenty of white gals in the same situation with the same dumb attitude. Making it a black thing instead of a socio-economic thing, or simply that some people are just lazy.... is pretty .. dumb. There are free loaders of every colour. Making it a strictly black thing shows us that you are uninformed, or have a streak of racism. If neither, then it could be a trolling tactic. I don't know anymore with some of the posters here.

jbg · December 28, 2014

I've seen plenty of white gals in the same situation with the same dumb attitude. Making it a black thing instead of a socio-economic thing, or simply that some people are just lazy.... is pretty .. dumb. There are free loaders of every colour. Making it a strictly black thing shows us that you are uninformed, or have a streak of racism. If neither, then it could be a trolling tactic. I don't know anymore with some of the posters here.

I did not refer to freeloading. What I am stating is the unfortunate fact that blacks are becoming a semi-permanent underclass. Some do escape. Those that escape though are denigrated by their own people for "acting white."

jacee · December 28, 2014

I did not refer to freeloading. What I am stating is the unfortunate fact that blacks are becoming a semi-permanent underclass. Some do escape. Those that escape though are denigrated by their own people for "acting white."

Look jbg ... stop your gross generalizations.

Yes there's an underclass of some black people, but not all.

And there's an underclass of some white people too.

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jbg · December 28, 2014

Look jbg ... stop your gross generalizations.

Yes there's an underclass of some black people, but not all.

And there's an underclass of some white people too.

.

I believe in keeping my eyes open and functioning on what I observe. I of course aspire to a better future for all but that is not current reality. Sorry.

Michael Hardner · December 28, 2014

I believe in keeping my eyes open and functioning on what I observe. I of course aspire to a better future for all but that is not current reality. Sorry.

Interesting wording. I have two responses:

Firstly, my eyes tell me what I'm looking at in the moment; my heart gives an emotional response which drives me to action; my brain requires me to gather information beyond my personal experience so that I can understand what is happening at a deeper level.

Secondly, aspiring for a better future is passive. Thinking, analyzing and speaking about our experience is a requirement for an interested public to create choices for the collective to act towards our problems.

Big Guy · December 28, 2014

According to the U.S. Census Bureau "The per capita income for the overall population in 2008 was $26,964; for non-Hispanic Whites, it was $31,313: for Blacks, it was $18,406; for Asians, it was $30,292; and for Hispanics (median of all races within group), it was $15,674".

As to unwed mothers; the Black community's 72 percent rate eclipses that of other groups; 17 percent of Asians, 29 percent of whites, 53 percent of Hispanics and 66 percent of Native Americans were born to unwed mothers in 2008, the most recent year for which government figures are available.

There are facts and there is conjecture. The above are the facts. The conjecture is what are the reasons for these facts.

The process of dealing with a problem is;

1. Establish if a problem exists.

2. Investigate the causes of the problem.

3. Establish possible solutions.

4. Facilitate and apply the solutions.

I believe we have established that there is a problem. Now we can look at steps 2,3 and 4.

jacee · December 28, 2014

According to the U.S. Census Bureau "The per capita income for the overall population in 2008 was $26,964; for non-Hispanic Whites, it was $31,313: for Blacks, it was $18,406; for Asians, it was $30,292; and for Hispanics (median of all races within group), it was $15,674".

As to unwed mothers; the Black community's 72 percent rate eclipses that of other groups; 17 percent of Asians, 29 percent of whites, 53 percent of Hispanics and 66 percent of Native Americans were born to unwed mothers in 2008, the most recent year for which government figures are available.

There are facts and there is conjecture. The above are the facts. The conjecture is what are the reasons for these facts.

The process of dealing with a problem is;

1. Establish if a problem exists.

2. Investigate the causes of the problem.

3. Establish possible solutions.

4. Facilitate and apply the solutions.

I believe we have established that there is a problem. Now we can look at steps 2,3 and 4.

The label "unwed mothers" is entirely outdated and irrelevant. Many stable couples don't 'wed' these days. Only data for 'sole support' parents is relevant.

And data on progress since past decades would be useful as well. So would a link to your source.

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Michael Hardner · December 28, 2014

The most difficult part of the process that BG outlines is to designate the participants and publics for the solution design, as well as how to communicate.

There will be dissent and disagreement, and therefore the opportunity for negative politics, ie. participation of stakeholders who do not have an interest in a solution. I would say that that is the biggest threat here. Also, a "solution" may be expected to take a long time so expectations need to be managed.

Argus · December 28, 2014

I've seen plenty of white gals in the same situation with the same dumb attitude.

True.

Making it a black thing instead of a socio-economic thing, or simply that some people are just lazy.... is pretty .. dumb.

Maybe it's a cultural thing. Keep in mind the problem becomes exacerbated given the unofficial amount of segregation which exists in the US. If you have a particular geographical area which is mainly black, and poor, with a lot of crime, you wind up with a welfare culture where the hope of forward economic progress is mostly lost anyway. People don't try to get good marks in high school because no one there goes to college. They don't check want ads because they're sure they can't get jobs anyway. There's nothing to do and nowhere to go. That sort of attitude allows for lots of single parent families, especially when the men involved are not in any way required to help with the raising of the kids (welfare will take care of them).

So what does a young woman do to establish herself? She does her best to look hot and she has kids, of course. What does a young man to do establish himself? He does his best to show he's tough, and he has kids. If he can beat people up, and has a few kids, well then, he's a man. If all he does is study book, and tries to get crappy jobs working in the service industry, he's mocked and jeered.

GostHacked · December 28, 2014

I did not refer to freeloading. What I am stating is the unfortunate fact that blacks are becoming a semi-permanent underclass. Some do escape. Those that escape though are denigrated by their own people for "acting white."

If it's not freeloading what is causing blacks to have or seek that lifestyle? Blacks in my view in the USA have ALWAYS been treated as second class.

Smallc · December 28, 2014

So what does a young woman do to establish herself? She does her best to look hot and she has kids, of course. What does a young man to do establish himself? He does his best to show he's tough, and he has kids. If he can beat people up, and has a few kids, well then, he's a man. If all he does is study book, and tries to get crappy jobs working in the service industry, he's mocked and jeered.

A similar phenomena happens with native and metis kids in Winnipeg's North End, West End, and Central neighbourhoods. It's where my fiancee came from, so I had a pretty clear view of all of it. She still has the (fading) mentality that you have to be tough so people know not to not mess with you.

Edit: I was told to edit my post. I feel it loses something in translation, but that didn't originally say screw.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Smallc

Big Guy · December 28, 2014

To jaycee - If you google "unwed mothers black statistics" you will find numerous resources which reflect the same statistics. I would appreciate a link to a resource(s) that disputes those numbers.

The causes to the discrepancy in those statistics have been argued for years. I am sure there are more than a couple of reasons. The problem with racists is they put the blame on the race or "inbred culture" for the differences ignoring the environmental, demographic, historical discriminatory policies et al. Their usual response is that it is "their fault" so "they" are getting what "they" deserve. That process of thinking evades having to study or research the history of Blacks in North America and allows the racist to feel "superior" and entitled.

TimG · December 28, 2014

Their usual response is that it is "their fault" so "they" are getting what "they" deserve.

No. That is the spin put on the argument by people who think that personal responsibility has no role. A rational middle of the road approach would recognize that society needs to provide supports to people who are poor (i.e. access to quality education) but also recognize that the problems cannot be solved as long as the people don't take responsibility for their own choices.

GostHacked · December 28, 2014

No. That is the spin put on the argument by people who think that personal responsibility has no role. A rational middle of the road approach would recognize that society needs to provide supports to people who are poor (i.e. access to quality education) but also recognize that the problems cannot be solved as long as the people don't take responsibility for their own choices.

If one could find a decent paying job, that might be alright. But more automation makes humans not needed. Lots of part time crap jobs out there, the high paying jobs are shrinking fast.

poochy · December 28, 2014

If one could find a decent paying job, that might be alright. But more automation makes humans not needed. Lots of part time crap jobs out there, the high paying jobs are shrinking fast.

Which affects everyone and doesn't really matter, lots of poor people regardless of race, work hard, make little, and don't commit crime at high rates. That's life and it always has been.

GostHacked · December 28, 2014

Which affects everyone and doesn't really matter, lots of poor people regardless of race, work hard, make little, and don't commit crime at high rates. That's life and it always has been.

Oh I bet others are committing as many crimes, but it depends on if you get caught, or if you are being disproportionately targeted and jailed for said crimes. Bankers and financial 'gurus' are some of the biggest criminals on the planet, ruining swaths of people's lives with just a few keystrokes.

Edited December 28, 2014 by GostHacked

Argus · December 28, 2014

No. That is the spin put on the argument by people who think that personal responsibility has no role. A rational middle of the road approach would recognize that society needs to provide supports to people who are poor (i.e. access to quality education) but also recognize that the problems cannot be solved as long as the people don't take responsibility for their own choices.

Personal responsibility has a role. Still, we have to acknowledge that someone growing up in a slum, surrounded by people who have never worked, raised by a slatternly woman who has never worked and who has four other fathers to her children, none of whom come around is considerably less likely to decide that their personal responsibility is to, for example, ensure they pay close attention at school so they can grow up to -- go on welfare like everyone else. Yes, yes, I know individuals can rise above it. But the odds are very much more likely people will go with the flow and do what everyone else is doing, which is fighting, fornicating and not worrying too much about the future.

TimG · December 28, 2014

. Still, we have to acknowledge that someone growing up in a slum, surrounded by people who have never worked, raised by a slatternly woman who has never worked and who has four other fathers to her children, none of whom come around is considerably less likely to decide that their personal responsibility is to, for example, ensure they pay close attention at school so they can grow up to -- go on welfare like everyone else.

I don't disagree - but society can do nothing to fix toxic cultures since culture must be changed from within - society can only offer opportunities to those willing to escape it.

GostHacked · December 28, 2014

I don't disagree - but society can do nothing to fix toxic cultures since culture must be changed from within - society can only offer opportunities to those willing to escape it.

Wonder if we got rid of TV and Hollywood that reinforce a lot of that so called culture upon the masses.